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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:57 pm 
 

No?

It's a hybrid of metal (specifically, Neurosis) and post-rock. That's all there is to it.
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Yayattasa
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:27 pm 
 

There isn't much post-rock into it. Don't see much in common between Neurosis and Isis and Godspeed You! Black Emperor and Sigur Rós.
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Arkhane wrote:
Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:31 pm 
 

That's because Neurosis aren't really post-metal. They're more like weird sludge with folk/ambient/tribal stuff. Isis and similar bands are clearly a fusion of Neurosis and post-rock in the Explosions in the Sky mold.
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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:42 pm 
 

well there are a few things regarding post-metal.
A long time ago there was a band called Neurosis. They pioneered what i call atmospheric sludge metal, the dominant factor in their music was primarily sludge but with a more atmospheric spin on it.
Later on neurosis got more experimental and started to add some post-rock elements into the fray. Out of this came bands like Isis who basically added so much post-rock elements to the mix that it became post-sludge. Sludge with heavy post rock influence.
These days most post-metal bands are simply post-sludge as pioneered by isis, there are a few bands that still play atmospheric sludge but not many. It never was a really big thing to begin with.

Now there also some bands which have a whole broad range of elements in their sound and are not easy to pigeonhole. These are the only bands which can be called post-metal in the proper sense of that term. As in similar as to way post-rock is called post-rock.

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Gypaetus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:03 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:42 pm 
 

I hope no one minds me asking this here - it is a stupid genre question thread after all, and I think these are pretty stupid questions on my part. Anyway, out of my own unashamed anal-retentiveness, I needed to ask:

1: Is there any difference between bands that have "black/death" as their genre, compared to "death/black"? I was thinking the obvious (that black/death is black w/ death metal influence, and death/black = death w/ black metal influence), but am wondering if it is that or just a superficial difference in how the genres of these bands are written on the site, and nothing more. Same question applies to death/doom vs doom/death, black/thrash vs thrash/black etc.

2: Is there a difference in bands listed as "Drone doom metal" compared to "drone/doom metal"? Is the latter a true hybrid of drone and doom, and the former predominantly drone with doom influence, or is this an arbitrary distinction as well?
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Azmodes
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:38 pm 
 

Gypaetus wrote:
I hope no one minds me asking this here - it is a stupid genre question thread after all, and I think these are pretty stupid questions on my part. Anyway, out of my own unashamed anal-retentiveness, I needed to ask:

1: Is there any difference between bands that have "black/death" as their genre, compared to "death/black"? I was thinking the obvious (that black/death is black w/ death metal influence, and death/black = death w/ black metal influence), but am wondering if it is that or just a superficial difference in how the genres of these bands are written on the site, and nothing more. Same question applies to death/doom vs doom/death, black/thrash vs thrash/black etc.

2: Is there a difference in bands listed as "Drone doom metal" compared to "drone/doom metal"? Is the latter a true hybrid of drone and doom, and the former predominantly drone with doom influence, or is this an arbitrary distinction as well?

No. Some people would like to have such a ludicrous system and I don't doubt that many users purposely format submissions that way because they believe it's right and proper (and that it is in accordance with site policy), but the site doesn't officially, consistently follow any such nitpicking nonsense. It is, as you say, effectively a superficial difference, an arbitrary distinction that may have been invested with meaning by some.

Anyway, this thread is fucking painful. Not sure if it was such a good idea.
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Grindcoremaniac135
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:34 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:38 pm 
 

Is vomitnoise a real genre? I't have been used on gorenoise-channels on youtube, so what is it?

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Gypaetus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2013 1:03 pm
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:23 pm 
 

Azmodes wrote:
No. Some people would like to have such a ludicrous system and I don't doubt that many users purposely format submissions that way because they believe it's right and proper (and that it is in accordance with site policy), but the site doesn't officially, consistently follow any such nitpicking nonsense. It is, as you say, effectively a superficial difference, an arbitrary distinction that may have been invested with meaning by some.


Thanks for the clarification Azmodes.

Azmodes wrote:
Anyway, this thread is fucking painful. Not sure if it was such a good idea.


If that was directed at me in particular - sorry. I thought the questions were somewhat stupid but I was hoping that they were above the level of stupid that puts people at risk of brain aneurysms.
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Smalley
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:19 am 
 

Azmodes wrote:
Anyway, this thread is fucking painful. Not sure if it was such a good idea.


Hey, at least it's collected in one place now, instead of constant new multiple threads that you'll have to inevitably lock. Maybe it's just growing pains for a new sticky, or something. I guess it's a question of whether keeping this thread is more painful than the way things were before, or less.

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:59 am 
 

It actually seems to me like this thread actively encourages inane questions as well as people bringing obviously facetious non-genres to the table for laughs (or unknowingly). I didn't really notice an epidemic of stupid genre threads before, but maybe I missed some.

Gypaetus: Not really directed at you, I guess it's a reasonable thing to ask.
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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:16 pm 
 

There was an epidemic recently Azmodes, we were getting a "what is viking metal anyway? Lyrics shouldn't make genres!" Thread every threee weeks. This thread has caused a much, muuuuuch more inane level of ridiculous requests though.
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Manic Maniac
Grammaritically Challengated

Joined: Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:58 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:47 pm 
 

I've seen people actually speak of "Sid Metal" & "Love Metal" as if they where legit genres, but the only bands I can think of for these genres is Machinae Supremacy & HIM, respectively. Are these real genres?
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CF_Mono
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:39 pm 
 

Do we need a sticky on this? I don't really like the idea of adding a ton of stickies, for the same reason splitting boards into dozens of sub-forms works, because then it doesn't facilitate any original discussion or topics on the boards. People are less likely to check them, and less likely to read them, and less likely to check them for replies. I also don't think this kind of topic is introduced nearly enough to warrant it's own collective thread. Just my thoughts.
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MorbidEngel
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 22, 2013 6:54 pm 
 

Manic Maniac wrote:
I've seen people actually speak of "Sid Metal" & "Love Metal" as if they where legit genres, but the only bands I can think of for these genres is Machinae Supremacy & HIM, respectively. Are these real genres?


Love Metal is not a thing because HIM isn't even metal.
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Gatherum
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:46 am 
 

In the most basic terms, post-metal is a fusion of post-rock and heavy metal, but to attempt to sum it up like that almost constitutes a misleading statement. Drawing primarily from doom metal, particularly sludge, it is characterised most often by soaring shoegaze-esque atmospherics, repetitive structures that build via layering, and heavy crescendos. Because of this, exemplary songs tend to be rather long--longer on average than those of sludge bands--especially the more "traditional" varieties--but shorter and less monotonous than funeral doom and drone metal. In a way, it is structurally comparable to movements in classical music.

Because it was always meant to be methodologically progressive or experimental, its primary acts share easily-identifiable characteristics, but the genre is broad and adaptable enough that it can exist as a secondary influence or trait in bands that aren't typically thought of as post-metal bands (and in some cases, metal bands in general, by the standards of MA), á la later Esoteric, later Underoath, and Uneven Structure (note that, stylistically, these bands are totally unrelated to each other).

To save you some confusion, you should look in to bands like Cult of Luna, Isis, and The Ocean (preferably their mid-era material) for an accurate representation of the sound.

To a point, I can agree that the term, "post-metal", when taken literally, is a bit presumptuous, and also a bit misleading when suggested by analogy to post-rock because the only thing post-rock and post-metal inescapably have in common is the shoegaze influence. I use it because it is the widely-accepted term, but feel that "metalgaze" would probably be a better fit.
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Gatherum
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 5:52 am 
 

Manic Maniac wrote:
I've seen people actually speak of "Sid Metal" & "Love Metal" as if they where legit genres, but the only bands I can think of for these genres is Machinae Supremacy & HIM, respectively. Are these real genres?


Marketing terms, essentially. HIM are basically a mainstream-friendly gothic rock act with some heaviness here and there. "Love metal" refers to their lyrical content.

Azmodes wrote:
Gypaetus wrote:
I hope no one minds me asking this here - it is a stupid genre question thread after all, and I think these are pretty stupid questions on my part. Anyway, out of my own unashamed anal-retentiveness, I needed to ask:

1: Is there any difference between bands that have "black/death" as their genre, compared to "death/black"? I was thinking the obvious (that black/death is black w/ death metal influence, and death/black = death w/ black metal influence), but am wondering if it is that or just a superficial difference in how the genres of these bands are written on the site, and nothing more. Same question applies to death/doom vs doom/death, black/thrash vs thrash/black etc.

2: Is there a difference in bands listed as "Drone doom metal" compared to "drone/doom metal"? Is the latter a true hybrid of drone and doom, and the former predominantly drone with doom influence, or is this an arbitrary distinction as well?

No. Some people would like to have such a ludicrous system and I don't doubt that many users purposely format submissions that way because they believe it's right and proper (and that it is in accordance with site policy), but the site doesn't officially, consistently follow any such nitpicking nonsense. It is, as you say, effectively a superficial difference, an arbitrary distinction that may have been invested with meaning by some.

Anyway, this thread is fucking painful. Not sure if it was such a good idea.


Also, I agree that it is, indeed, nonsense, but in regards to item 1, I remember reading somewhere that Gypaetus' suggestion is essentially correct: certain bands on the archives are labelled "black/death" or "death/black" in accordance with which element is thought to be more prominent, that being indicated by whichever term appears left of the forward slash. Then (rather confusingly), you have "blackened death metal" used to describe yet another distinct style performed by bands like Akercocke, mid-era Behemoth, and Belphegor.

...Frankly, what I think needs to happen is a massive cleanup of the genre field, which would probably be replaced with a series of dropdown menus, or a genre tree...or something. Also, it would be nice to remove all instances of pejorative genre labels, like "mallcore". Hate it if you want, that's fine--but it's really juvenile to use it as an official tag in lieu of the actual label, "nu metal". Everybody knows what both refer to, so what's the fucking point?
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I believe it was Confucius who said "Life is merely a series of intervals in which one waits for the next Agalloch album."

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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:30 am 
 

That's stupid. the dropdown would need to have a comprehensive list of every musical genre to ever exist and every combination possible to help any band which combines anything with metal.
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Gatherum
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 7:45 am 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
That's stupid. the dropdown would need to have a comprehensive list of every musical genre to ever exist and every combination possible to help any band which combines anything with metal.


That's why I was thinking of a series of dropdowns. To provide a rough example if what I'm thinking of...

To label, say, Dark Tranquillity, you would pick "Death metal" from a first dropdown, and then two more would appear, one below the first one, and one to the right of it. The one below it exists if you wish to indicate another "primary genre", like "black metal". In this case, you would select nothing. The one on the right is for the subgenre, using which, we would choose "Melodic death metal". For another band, say, All Shall Perish, you could choose "Deathcore" instead. Now, deathcore is a fusion genre, drawing from both death metal and metalcore, which in turn draws from hardcore punk. For our purposes, though, it'd be indicated as a subgenre of death metal because hardcore punk is obviously not a metal genre, despite how much black, death, and thrash owe to it.

So, basically, a dropdown genre tree thing.

It's complex, but it would solve a lot of the tagging issues we have. All bands have to be approved by the mods to be on the database anyway, so, presumably, if anyone royally fucks up the genre dropdowns, the approving mod could correct it accordingly.

I'm not really positing this realistically thinking that it'll be what we do. It's just an idea I had, based on how I tag my music in my media player (though it is distinct), the J River Media Center, which happens to be very flexible about metadata and tag editing.

If we wanted to get really meticulous (as I do), we could have these options at the release level, which would influence what it says in the band entry. For example, Katatonia. Everything up to Sounds of Decay would look like this:

Primary genres: Death metal, Doom metal | Subgenres/fusion genres: Death/doom metal

But then, everything from Saw You Drown onward would look like this:

Primary genres: Rock | Subgenres/fusion genres: Alternative rock, alternative metal, gothic rock

(Or whatever.)

This would cause the genre field on the main band page to populate with "Death/doom metal (1991-1997)", "Alternative rock, Alternative metal, Gothic rock (1998-Present)"

For the sake of organisation, genres would appear alphabetised when the page is saved.
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ThePoop wrote:
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I believe it was Confucius who said "Life is merely a series of intervals in which one waits for the next Agalloch album."

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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:17 am 
 

No. That looks awful and is still stupid.

(And still requires the pre-inclusion of literally every genre of music to ever exist)
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Gatherum
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:23 am 
 

All right then.

Gatherum wrote:
All bands have to be approved by the mods to be on the database anyway, so, presumably, if anyone royally fucks up the genre dropdowns, the approving mod could correct it accordingly.


Do we at least do this currently? If not, why?
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 8:32 am 
 

Yes, but things slip through which is why we have a MASSIVE thread in the S&C board, sometimes people misunderstand genres for reasons beyond just having them in a drodown box. Literally all a dropdown box helps with is consistency on word order in fusion genres which is pretty much meaningless.
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Gatherum
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 9:01 am 
 

That's fine. I'm not even advocating for the dropdown idea anymore. I was just asking if we have any sort of quality control measure going on in the genre field. I mean, some bands are hard to pigeonhole--I got it. But the whole black/death, death/black, blackened death issue suggests to me that, much of the time, we just kinda let this shit through as-is.

Personally, I think it would be a better idea just to lean towards using primary genres, leaving sub/fusion genres implied by the primary genres except where indicating one is absolutely imperative to provide a clear description of a given band's musical style. Honestly, in the cases of Akercocke, Behemoth, and Belphegor, you could just label them all "Black/Death Metal" to preserve uniformity, where "black" coming before "death" does not imply that it is black metal with death metal influences or some other arbitrary bullshit, but is simply arranged that way because "black" obviously comes before "death" alphabetically. No more of this "Death/Black Metal" because "it's death metal with black metal influences", or "Blackened Death Metal" because "that's the actual name of the fusion genre" nonsense.
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I believe it was Confucius who said "Life is merely a series of intervals in which one waits for the next Agalloch album."

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 4:26 pm 
 

Moderators review every submission, we listen to every band submitted, and we change the genre if it isn't accurate. Only moderators can change genres. We're not overly concerned with scrutinizing the use of black/death vs death/black because we expect users to have functional brains and not get lost because of it.

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Postemortem
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 24, 2013 11:36 pm 
 

Is war metal a real genre? I hear the term used a lot, and the bands people describe as war metal seem to be listed as death/black on MA. Incidentally, this leads to another question; is there a difference between death/black and blackened death? I'm guessing the difference between these two would just be in the degree to which the band takes influence from black metal.

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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 25, 2013 12:08 am 
 

Well its a real sound, not really a genre as such. Its more or less black/thrash/death with some grind touches. It's a useful term for grouping bands since it's so specific and it does have a LOT of bands, but I don't think I'd ever tag anything it. It guess my reasoning for "not a genre" is that it has such a narrow range of sounds, but the term certainly has worth. In this sense its not unlike "Norsecore" or "Cascadian BM" in that it describes are narrow subset of existing genres quickly, but doesn't do enough differently enough to be considered its own genre.
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Smalley
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:14 am 
 

Anyone else feel that "groove metal" is less of a sub-genre, and more like a... "movement", maybe, that peaked in the early-mid 90's? Y'know, like how the old-school Swedeath movement (the one with the Sunlight Studios "chainsaw sound") peaked during the first half of the 90's?

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Auch
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:24 am 
 

Ohrwurm wrote:
There's also a band that call themselves post-grind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGI9oGHjS4M


These people have clearly never actually heard grindcore. This is just some crappy BtBaM rip-off.

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The Infamous Bastard
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 1:35 am 
 

Is there anything as post-death metal, as post-black metal or post-thrash metal?

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:57 am 
 

Postemortem wrote:
Is war metal a real genre? I hear the term used a lot, and the bands people describe as war metal seem to be listed as death/black on MA. Incidentally, this leads to another question; is there a difference between death/black and blackened death? I'm guessing the difference between these two would just be in the degree to which the band takes influence from black metal.


I actually think it refers to two fairly distinct things. On one hand you've got Blasphemy worship (i.e. endless blasting, noisy bullshit guitars that may or may not be playing coherent riffs, some guy either bellowing or screaming his lungs out) and on the other you've got the distinctly Aussie "war metal" sound which is almost always thrashy but then is blended with varying amounts of both black and death metal.
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Twisted_Psychology
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 2:58 pm 
 

The Infamous Bastard wrote:
Is there anything as post-death metal, as post-black metal or post-thrash metal?


Couldn't tell you about post-death metal but some people think of groove metal as being post thrash.
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Yayattasa
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 5:21 pm 
 

Smalley wrote:
Anyone else feel that "groove metal" is less of a sub-genre, and more like a... "movement", maybe, that peaked in the early-mid 90's?


Nah (didn't hear a single one that managed to really groove, but actually I do like me some of the bands in this genre).
Of course, it really fell into oblivion as soon as Funk Metal, Rap Metal and Nu Metal (all of which evolved from Thrash and Groove Metal, mostly) took it's share on the mainstream, but this happened to several established genres.
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Arkhane wrote:
Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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tomcat_ha
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 26, 2013 11:47 pm 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
The Infamous Bastard wrote:
Is there anything as post-death metal, as post-black metal or post-thrash metal?


Couldn't tell you about post-death metal but some people think of groove metal as being post thrash.


I'd Say Island and Valborg are post-death.

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Snowgrave
Under The Plaintive Sky

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 27, 2013 11:15 pm 
 

The Infamous Bastard wrote:
Is there anything as post-death metal, as post-black metal or post-thrash metal?

tomcat_ha wrote:
I'd Say Island and Valborg are post-death.

It depends on who you ask, really. In my opinion, that atmospheric, technical and chaotic sound best exemplified by Ulcerate could qualify as "post-death metal". In any case, it's not (yet) an established moniker as far as I'm aware.
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HeadbangXd
Mallcore Kid

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 12:42 am 
 

"Mallcore" I hate this term, it's okay that you do not like Nu-Metal but not have to change the name, it is called nu metal, maybe dont really is not metal! but if you call so what are we going to do? that's very immature to put on stupid names to things we do not like

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AcidWorm
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 1:24 am 
 

HeadbangXd wrote:
"Mallcore" I hate this term, it's okay that you do not like Nu-Metal but not have to change the name, it is called nu metal, maybe dont really is not metal! but if you call so what are we going to do? that's very immature to put on stupid names to things we do not like

The problem with nu metal as a label is that it contains the word 'metal' in it which is misleading.
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LordEuronymous
Mallcore Kid

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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 3:19 am 
 

Troll/Forest Metal, yes it's a real genre:



One thing I've been questioning myself is regarding whether blackcore exists or not. I reckon in time a bunch of whiny emos will come together to create the genre, let's hope not.
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Ohrwurm
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Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:47 am
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Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Sat Dec 28, 2013 6:16 am 
 

AcidWorm wrote:
HeadbangXd wrote:
"Mallcore" I hate this term, it's okay that you do not like Nu-Metal but not have to change the name, it is called nu metal, maybe dont really is not metal! but if you call so what are we going to do? that's very immature to put on stupid names to things we do not like

The problem with nu metal as a label is that it contains the word 'metal' in it which is misleading.


What's annoying is that some use the same label on metalcore. I don't think nu-metal and metalcore should have the same label. It's demeaning to metalcore.
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Postemortem
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Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2013 11:46 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:20 am 
 

Thanks, guys. Would you say a band like God Dethroned is war metal? I've heard them called that, but I get the impression that might be because of the lyrics in their recent albums.

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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:06 am 
 

Nope not even remotely, as you can read within the last ten posts war metal is like noisy black/thrash/death/grind. Therefore their melodeath with war lyrics is not a factor.
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AcidWorm
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Joined: Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:37 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 10:58 am 
 

LordEuronymous wrote:
Troll/Forest Metal, yes it's a real genre:

[youtube]Video[/youtube]

One thing I've been questioning myself is regarding whether blackcore exists or not. I reckon in time a bunch of whiny emos will come together to create the genre, let's hope not.


I can't listen at the moment but if that is the Norwegian Troll I recall them being black metal but that was years ago that I last heard them. We already have pagan, viking, folk, ambient, and black metal so no need for forest or troll metal. If you find a band you want to label that it is most likely one or a combination of the genres I listed.
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