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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
Posts: 5405
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:06 am 
 

... Dance of December Souls is black/doom?
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Yayattasa
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
Posts: 586
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 9:39 am 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
... Dance of December Souls is black/doom?


Well, it's not pure death doom either. There's a lot of black metal influences, but I'm not sure I would call it the first black doom metal album.
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inhumanist wrote:
Arkhane wrote:
Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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michaelksirby
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:41 pm
Posts: 1
Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 1:49 pm 
 

Can anyone please explain a bit more about Dark Metal? Recently i am hearing about it too much dunno what type they are.
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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
Posts: 2450
Location: Chile
PostPosted: Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:33 pm 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
... Dance of December Souls is black/doom?


If it's not black/doom, I don't know what it is. Maybe the doom feeling is a bit more present but the black metal influences are also very noticeable. If you want a more 'polished' or standard black/doom album, see Betlehem's debut.

For the Dark Metal question, if it's about the genre, I'll quote myself:

Kveldulfr wrote:

Dark metal is a term that has changed over time.

The first incarnation of the term was created for music like early Bethlehem and Katatonia's Dance of December Souls, even Deinonychus.

The second form I remember hearing/reading like that was the mixture of black, doom and folk (with an emphasis on the latter). Empyrium is the perfect example, then came stuff like Agalloch which more or less followed that path (see The Mantle).
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Jimmy Calhoun
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:29 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 5:13 am 
 

Honestly, I've seen the term "dark metal" used so vaguely - though usually with reference to gothic/doom influences in some form - that I'm not entirely sure how to answer the question. I do know the phrase has a generally negative connotation for me, since it makes me think of watered-down "melodic" faux-death/black metal of the kind Napalm Records used to specialize in 10-15 years ago.

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nasum
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:42 pm
Posts: 298
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:11 am 
 

I've skimmed this thread, and I think I get most of this genres and 'genres', but probably most known new genre in last years confuses me.

What is Djent?

I've listened only to Meshuggah out of all listed bands on wiki, and I now checked Meshuggah page here, and they're listed as Djent band for real. So that's now official (for m-a) genre of metal? Also, there's total of 6 bands here listed as Djent bands, but all partially, there's no band playing only Djent.
Can there be pure Djent Metal band?

Seriously, can someone give me short recap on what is Djent?
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heavymetalbackwards wrote:
nasum wrote:
that is Rage Against The Machine, not metal.

It's probably his idea of metal. That Black Sabbath and Trouble stuff doesn't have enough gangsta giving the finger.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6556
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 7:22 am 
 

I think it could be because pure djent would not be metal and thus would rarely appear on this site. Another reason could be that djent is an extremely specific descriptor, and few bands do that one thing without any other obvious influences. The band A Sense of Gravity is listed as merely djent (early), so according to that label, it would be pure djent. However, I'd advice not taking the genre labels on this site as completely absolute truth, as some of them are slightly simplified for the sake of convenience. See, Gwar doesn't play a genre called various. ;)

If you ask me, this is very much pure djent: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzVrexZgeGU&t=2m4s
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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:27 am 
 

Yeah Djent is not a metal genre, don't get confused by the Meshuggah presence, they're here for the thrash debut, and even their djent side is more groove metal influenced than any other djent band I've heard.
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MutantClannfear
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 2363
Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Mar 03, 2014 4:18 pm 
 

nasum wrote:
Seriously, can someone give me short recap on what is Djent?

As a general rule, djent is nu-metal-styled grooves played in a mathcore format. It's almost exclusively played on extremely downtuned, heavy guitars, and there's usually lots of odd time signature abuse, lots of high/low note contrasts, and lots of syncopation.

From there, djent can take several forms, it can be mixed with:

  • ostentatious shredding (Animals as Leaders)
  • deathcore (Persaeus; can't really think of a better example right now, but a lot of the shitty local djent bands that go absolutely nowhere fall into this group)
  • metalcore/hard rock (Periphery)
  • ambient/Devin Townsend-like soundscapes (Uneven Structure, later Tesseract)
  • groove metal - bands of this breed usually just sound like total Meshuggah clones (Vildhjarta)
  • technical death metal (Anomalous)

There's some genre crossover between djent and mathcore and also djent and deathcore - a lot of modern mathcore and deathcore bands could probably be considered to be influenced by what's now known as "djent". See for example this song by The Tony Danza Tapdance Extravaganza, a mathcore band: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCu8w8eaGhE
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Wilytank wrote:
Aeosphorus wrote:
there are post-black metal bands such as ...Sunn O.

When did we start calling Sunn O))) black metal and how soon can we stop?

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Metal Shark
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:54 am
Posts: 78
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:39 am 
 

HeadbangXd wrote:
"Mallcore" I hate this term, it's okay that you do not like Nu-Metal but not have to change the name, it is called nu metal, maybe dont really is not metal! but if you call so what are we going to do? that's very immature to put on stupid names to things we do not like


But "Mallcore" very succinctly implies that this music sucks. And it does! :D

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MutantClannfear
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2014 10:35 pm 
 

Metal Shark wrote:
HeadbangXd wrote:
"Mallcore" I hate this term, it's okay that you do not like Nu-Metal but not have to change the name, it is called nu metal, maybe dont really is not metal! but if you call so what are we going to do? that's very immature to put on stupid names to things we do not like

But "Mallcore" very succinctly implies that this music sucks. And it does! :D

How is it any more succinct than "nu-metal"? Writing either involves eight symbols or keystrokes. Furthermore, unless you're trying to argue that nu-metal isn't universally awful (which, considering the phrasing of your comment, I highly doubt you are), why would you need to create a new term clarifying that it's awful?

"Mallcore" is a ridiculously asinine term. The idea of people trying to retcon the name of a genre into an insult is stupid enough, but the fact that it gets used in an encyclopedic context here on MA is downright embarrassing and a serious blow to the database's credibility. It'd be like changing Black Sabbath's genre to "Heavy Metal/Dad Rock" - nothing short of unprofessional and moronic.
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Wilytank wrote:
Aeosphorus wrote:
there are post-black metal bands such as ...Sunn O.

When did we start calling Sunn O))) black metal and how soon can we stop?

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Ohrwurm
Metalhead

Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2013 1:47 am
Posts: 416
Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 12:07 am 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
Metal Shark wrote:
But "Mallcore" very succinctly implies that this music sucks. And it does! :D

How is it any more succinct than "nu-metal"? Writing either involves eight symbols or keystrokes. Furthermore, unless you're trying to argue that nu-metal isn't universally awful (which, considering the phrasing of your comment, I highly doubt you are), why would you need to create a new term clarifying that it's awful?

"Mallcore" is a ridiculously asinine term. The idea of people trying to retcon the name of a genre into an insult is stupid enough, but the fact that it gets used in an encyclopedic context here on MA is downright embarrassing and a serious blow to the database's credibility. It'd be like changing Black Sabbath's genre to "Heavy Metal/Dad Rock" - nothing short of unprofessional and moronic.


Hear hear!
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ld50
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:22 am
Posts: 503
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 6:51 am 
 

I agree. "Mallcore" is redundant and shouldn't be used as an official label.

On another note, I'm quite amused that Meshuggah has been changed from technical groove/post-thrash to "Technical Nu-Metal/Djent." Technical nu-metal seems like an oxymoron, but so does technical groove. However, both are at least partially correct in certain contexts when it comes to Meshuggah.

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Metal Shark
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Feb 25, 2014 9:54 am
Posts: 78
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:29 am 
 

MutantClannfear wrote:
Metal Shark wrote:
But "Mallcore" very succinctly implies that this music sucks. And it does! :D

How is it any more succinct than "nu-metal"? Writing either involves eight symbols or keystrokes. Furthermore, unless you're trying to argue that nu-metal isn't universally awful (which, considering the phrasing of your comment, I highly doubt you are), why would you need to create a new term clarifying that it's awful?

"Mallcore" is a ridiculously asinine term. The idea of people trying to retcon the name of a genre into an insult is stupid enough, but the fact that it gets used in an encyclopedic context here on MA is downright embarrassing and a serious blow to the database's credibility. It'd be like changing Black Sabbath's genre to "Heavy Metal/Dad Rock" - nothing short of unprofessional and moronic.


"nu-metal" gives the genre TOO much credit by allowing it the compliment of the word "metal". "mallcore" avoids this problem! :D

I've never liked the "nu" mis-spelling, either.

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BIaziken
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:02 pm
Posts: 11
Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 2:53 pm 
 

Both nu-metal and mallcore sound dumb but mallcore sounds dumber so until someone thinks up a term that doesn't imply it's metal and isn't an insult I just prefer to call it nu-metal.

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MutantClannfear
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 2363
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:07 pm 
 

Metal Shark wrote:
"nu-metal" gives the genre TOO much credit by allowing it the compliment of the word "metal". "mallcore" avoids this problem! :D

Because God knows describing something as "metal" is inherently a compliment and should only be used to describe GOOD bands! Long live metal, objectively the greatest, most intellectual genre ever!!! \\\\m/////

"Witch house" has no house influence. Power electronics, powerviolence, power pop and power metal have no relation to each other. Same goes for deathrock and death metal. Genres sometimes end up with misleading or confusing names. Deal with it. Responding to it by trying to retroactively insult the genre (and trying to make said insulting term an official name for the genre) is petty and childish.
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Wilytank wrote:
Aeosphorus wrote:
there are post-black metal bands such as ...Sunn O.

When did we start calling Sunn O))) black metal and how soon can we stop?

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
Posts: 5011
Location: United States
PostPosted: Thu Mar 06, 2014 9:21 pm 
 

"Mallcore" has almost entirely been removed from MA and replaced with a more appropriate term - nu-metal, alternative rock, or in some cases some variant of groove metal. There's only been a few bands left with that listed as the genre and they generally haven't been changed because I haven't been able to find samples of their music to determine what style of music they actually played. It's probably the most accurate way to describe Semargl though...

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Byrain
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:45 pm
Posts: 1237
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:03 pm 
 

lord_ghengis wrote:
... Dance of December Souls is black/doom?


Yes, as far as I remember that is what its always been considered, I'm not sure what it was considered when it came out.

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MutantClannfear
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
Posts: 2363
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:35 pm 
 

Most people refer to it as death/doom.
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Wilytank wrote:
Aeosphorus wrote:
there are post-black metal bands such as ...Sunn O.

When did we start calling Sunn O))) black metal and how soon can we stop?

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Byrain
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:45 pm
Posts: 1237
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 7:00 pm 
 

Argumentum ad populum...

They started playing death/doom after with 'Brave Murder Day' & maybe to some extent 'For Funerals to Come...' , but they started off as black/doom, they even had silly black metal monikers back then. This is common knowledge in the doom metal community.

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MutantClannfear
Metalhead

Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 12:12 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:01 pm 
 

You stated what it was "considered" to be; I took that to mean you were speaking on behalf of a general consensus. I don't believe that album is death/doom either.
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Wilytank wrote:
Aeosphorus wrote:
there are post-black metal bands such as ...Sunn O.

When did we start calling Sunn O))) black metal and how soon can we stop?

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Byrain
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Jul 01, 2009 10:45 pm
Posts: 1237
PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2014 10:23 pm 
 

Ah yea, that might be true here, I was thinking more of places like doom-metal.com which has a few members who are easily some of the most knowledgeable people on doom around.

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Yayattasa
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
Posts: 586
Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:33 pm 
 

Are sludge metal and stoner metal real subgenres of doom metal? I mean, is it possible to play these genres and be, at the same time, un-doomy? About Stoner Metal, it seems that might be the case, as stoner rock-rooted bands approaching metal are usually tagged stoner metal, but I'm totally not sure about sludge.
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inhumanist wrote:
Arkhane wrote:
Damn, I thought this thread was headed for closure. Good save, whoever saved it but I'm too lazy to scroll up right now.

oh my god people disagreed on something for several pages stop the presses

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nasum
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2009 4:42 pm
Posts: 298
Location: Croatia
PostPosted: Mon Mar 10, 2014 2:37 pm 
 

Yayattasa wrote:
Are sludge metal and stoner metal real subgenres of doom metal? I mean, is it possible to play these genres and be, at the same time, un-doomy? About Stoner Metal, it seems that might be the case, as stoner rock-rooted bands approaching metal are usually tagged stoner metal, but I'm totally not sure about sludge.


Sludge is mix of two genres, it didn't come out directly out of Black Sabbath doom. It's a mix of punk and doom metal, which sounds a bit contradictory (punk is fast and energetic, while doom is slow and lethargic) but that mix created dirty, swampy, sludge sound, which can be played slowly like doom metal or aggressively as punk, I think it's played to show broader range of bad feelings, like anger and hate, which are not introvert feelings, but directed against something, like punk is anti-x music.
I'd even say that doom metal is now very umbrella term, as you have two sides of it - traditional doom which follows steps Black Sabbath and extreme doom which was created from slowed down death metal, later black metal influenced by earlier doom metal bands (in 90% cases guys listened Candlemass and Black Sabbath).

So yes, I think you can play sludge and be un-doomy, but you can't really sing about flowers and bees if you play sludge metal, only bad things may be sung in sludge metal.
Stoner metal is just partially related to doom metal in my opinion, bands usually borrow heaviness from it, making their psychedelic sound heavier. I presume it's seen as subgenre of doom metal, as it's offspring of Black Sabbath style of play.
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heavymetalbackwards wrote:
nasum wrote:
that is Rage Against The Machine, not metal.

It's probably his idea of metal. That Black Sabbath and Trouble stuff doesn't have enough gangsta giving the finger.

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Jimmy Calhoun
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:29 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:35 am 
 

Generally speaking, sludge isn't entirely separable from its doom roots, though an example of a "not very doomy" sludge band might be Black Cobra (who kick serious ass BTW).

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TheMirroringShadow
Metal newbie

Joined: Wed Jun 02, 2010 6:04 am
Posts: 64
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:53 pm 
 

What exactly is post/half-thrash metal? Is that like thrash metal played at like 50% speed? Or groove metal with the occasional thrash riffs and tempos thrown in? Very strange label.

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severzhavnost
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2008 10:16 pm
Posts: 764
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 2:15 pm 
 

^Where have you ever seen "half-" anything listed as a genre? Unless maybe e.g. half-thrash/half-death, but then that would be redundant, why not just thrash/death.
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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2014 11:16 pm 
 

There are probably a few, at least back when I joined the site and on other sites around at that period half-thrash was another term for groove metal basically, along with post thrash and neothrash. There is a slight expectation of some thrashiness rather than pure groove, but I think everyone has kinda accepted groove metal covers it all well enough. Any bands with it listed in a genre tag are likely left overs from the past.
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Ganondox
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:43 am
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:09 am 
 

Metal Shark wrote:

"nu-metal" gives the genre TOO much credit by allowing it the compliment of the word "metal". "mallcore" avoids this problem! :D

I've never liked the "nu" mis-spelling, either.


Well punk fans are going to say you give it too much credit by giving it the suffix -core. With the exception of rapcore, nu metal generally takes more from metal than any sort of -core music.

The "nu" mis-spelling emphasizes how stupid it is.

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Ganondox
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:43 am
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:32 am 
 

Hebidoku wrote:
Is blackco-

Nah, but seriously, is blues metal a genre or just another name for an existing one?


Wouldn't that be like the same thing as hard rock? Blues rock is a real genre, it's where hard rock emerged from. I guess some bands that are considered to heavy to be hard rock but still blues based, like some groove metal or maybe Death 'N Roll, but I think most of it either falls into another genre, or is just a random band, not a real genre. Any examples of what blues metal would be?

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6556
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 8:11 am 
 

Ganondox wrote:
Metal Shark wrote:

"nu-metal" gives the genre TOO much credit by allowing it the compliment of the word "metal". "mallcore" avoids this problem! :D

I've never liked the "nu" mis-spelling, either.


Well punk fans are going to say you give it too much credit by giving it the suffix -core. With the exception of rapcore, nu metal generally takes more from metal than any sort of -core music.

The "nu" mis-spelling emphasizes how stupid it is.

Yeah, but apparently nu metal takes its heavy riffing style from certain kinds of (at the time) modern hardcore rather than any kind of metal. A lot of people argue that the groove metal influence in nu metal tends to be vastly overstated, which I'm not sure I entirely agree with, but while I've unfortunately heard a bit of nu metal, I've listened to almost no groove metal whatsoever.
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Ganondox
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:43 am
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 9:17 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Yeah, but apparently nu metal takes its heavy riffing style from certain kinds of (at the time) modern hardcore rather than any kind of metal. A lot of people argue that the groove metal influence in nu metal tends to be vastly overstated, which I'm not sure I entirely agree with, but while I've unfortunately heard a bit of nu metal, I've listened to almost no groove metal whatsoever.


I don't know what hardcore was popular at the time the time of nu metal I can't confirm or deny that. I know hardcore was influential on nu metal, but I can't find any specific connections between the hardcore that was popular at the time and nu metal. I'm most familiar with classic hardcore, and when I think of hardcore it's not really riff based, at least not in the sense metal is, while nu metal is clearly riff based, albeit around very simply riffs. I'd say the clear difference between rapcore and nu metal is evidence of the genuine metal influence on nu metal. Keep in mind riffs aren't the only element there is to various music genres, like metal usually has a bassier guitar tone than punk. I think most likely the bands were attempting to imitate metal riffs, but they are compared with hardcore riffs because they are simpler than actual metal riffs.To be fair the forms of metal that influenced nu metal are also hardcore influenced, so they may have gotten a larger hardcore influence than it seems like they would be looking at which bands where influential on nu metal. For example industrial "metal" is actually as punk based as it is metal based, and the clearly metal influences like groove and thrash are also significantly hardcore influenced. I know many "alternative metal" bands like Helmet came out of the hardcore scene and were influential on nu metal, that might be what you are talking about with their heavy riffing style coming from the hardcore of the day. The real point is it's silly to worked over the metal in the term nu metal because mallcore is just as irrelevant of a term, only it's even stupider than the term slowcore.

Anyway, the prototypical groove metal sound is probably this song:


Sepultura's album roots is probably the most influential groove metal album on nu metal.


It's probably overstated, but it's definitely there.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

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Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 11:29 am 
 

I can't stress enough that I'm not an expert in this, but isn't Roots already a full-fledged nu metal album? That title song doesn't sound anything like metal to me, and there are probably Korn songs with more traces of metal influence.

The vocals on Roots are completely hardcore, that much I know.
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Ganondox
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:43 am
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:00 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
I can't stress enough that I'm not an expert in this, but isn't Roots already a full-fledged nu metal album? That title song doesn't sound anything like metal to me, and there are probably Korn songs with more traces of metal influence.

The vocals on Roots are completely hardcore, that much I know.


I wouldn't call it full-fludged nu metal, but it could definitely be considered nu metal. It takes influence from Korn, but it came before the nu metal boom, and also evolved from Sepultura's early sound, which originated in death metal. Remember, just because the riff is the most defining aspect of heavy metal, doesn't mean it's the only trait of heavy metal. Insisting that music has no metal influence does not make metal any superior, something can take metal influence without being metal. While the song definitely isn't traditional heavy metal, it still has some elements which clearly originated from heavy metal. Well, anyway, the archives doesn't consider most groove metal to actually be metal, so it's understandable it wouldn't sound anything like metal to you.

The vocals are grove metal styled, which indeed did originate from hardcore, but is still slightly metal influenced. Completely hardcore vocals would be higher pitched, more nasally shouts. It's hard to say anything is completely metal or hardcore because the genres take some much influence from each other, the only vocals I'd really call completely metal would be those in power metal. Even death growls evolved from vocals with a slight hardcore influence.

I should probably clarify I'm not an expert either, I'm just a dude who loves music, listens to a lot of it, and has done considerable but informal research on rock music history on my own accord.

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Ilwhyan
Metel fraek

Joined: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:41 pm
Posts: 6556
Location: Finland
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 12:42 pm 
 

Ganondox wrote:
and also evolved from Sepultura's early sound, which originated in death metal.

That doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense. Sepultura helped define more death metal oriented thrash sounds in the mid-late 80s, but it was not quite as refined in its death metal sound as bands like Death or Possessed. Furthermore, Roots bears very little similarity to the death/thrash Sepultura. The similarities in riffing are solely in the approach (the riffs are quite simple: short, powerful themes that are repeated for effect), but the musical genre is obviously different. Since you posted the title track as an example of groove metal Sepultura, I can only assume that the rest of the album isn't more metallic either, and yeah, there's nothing death metallic about that song.

Ganondox wrote:
Remember, just because the riff is the most defining aspect of heavy metal, doesn't mean it's the only trait of heavy metal.
Similarly, emblazoning every possible aspect of metal other than riffing and turning that into something completely different makes it effectively not metal. Without the metal riff, music is not metal.

Ganondox wrote:
Insisting that music has no metal influence does not make metal any superior,

Image

Ganondox wrote:
While the song definitely isn't traditional heavy metal, it still has some elements which clearly originated from heavy metal. Well, anyway, the archives doesn't consider most groove metal to actually be metal, so it's understandable it wouldn't sound anything like metal to you.
That's both irritatingly condescending and completely false. The archives considers groove metal to be a legimate metal subgenre, I have no idea what gave you the idea that it didn't. However, while Pantera's Cowboy's From Hell is unquestionably, entirely metal, the Sepultura song is not, and you should be able to tell if by comparing the riffs alone. In short, the Sepultura song features a characteristic of groove metal riffing simplified to the extremes. Claiming that those riffs are metal would be analogous to cropping an image of a person to only show his hair, and then claiming that said hair is a human being.

Ganondox wrote:
The vocals are grove metal styled, which indeed did originate from hardcore, but is still slightly metal influenced. Completely hardcore vocals would be higher pitched, more nasally shouts. It's hard to say anything is completely metal or hardcore because the genres take some much influence from each other, the only vocals I'd really call completely metal would be those in power metal. Even death growls evolved from vocals with a slight hardcore influence.
You might be right, I based my comment mostly on the fact that plethora of bands that derived their musical style from 90s hardcore feature an extremely similar style of growling in their music even though there's absolutely nothing to suggest that they would've been influenced by either Sepultura's nu metal or various groove metal bands that influenced the aforementioned.
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Ritual_Suicide
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:39 am
Posts: 379
Location: United States
PostPosted: Wed Mar 12, 2014 2:58 pm 
 

I just want to point out that the "nu" in nu metal is not a misspelling nor is it the only music genre with the prefix.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nu_jazz

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Ganondox
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:43 am
Posts: 54
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 1:49 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
and also evolved from Sepultura's early sound, which originated in death metal.

That doesn't actually make a whole lot of sense. Sepultura helped define more death metal oriented thrash sounds in the mid-late 80s, but it was not quite as refined in its death metal sound as bands like Death or Possessed. Furthermore, Roots bears very little similarity to the death/thrash Sepultura. The similarities in riffing are solely in the approach (the riffs are quite simple: short, powerful themes that are repeated for effect), but the musical genre is obviously different. Since you posted the title track as an example of groove metal Sepultura, I can only assume that the rest of the album isn't more metallic either, and yeah, there's nothing death metallic about that song.



Agreed, though I don't know the album well enough to verify your claim. Also, I'm not saying the song is in anyway death metal, just that it's not nu metal out of no where, it's continuation of Sepultura's style, which was death metal at one point in time. Death/thrash is more precise and accurate, but death metal works well enough as a description.

Quote:

Ganondox wrote:
Remember, just because the riff is the most defining aspect of heavy metal, doesn't mean it's the only trait of heavy metal.
Similarly, emblazoning every possible aspect of metal other than riffing and turning that into something completely different makes it effectively not metal. Without the metal riff, music is not metal.


Here on metal archives that is how metal is defined, yes, and if you want to create an objective way of setting things in to the categories of metal or non-metal, that is probably the best way to do it. However, as I said, something can still have metal traits without being metal. Also, more liberal definitions of metal could include music that isn't based on a metal riff.
Quote:

Ganondox wrote:
Insisting that music has no metal influence does not make metal any superior,

Image



Let me rephrase that: There is no reason to declare that pretty much all music that is not metal has pretty much no metal influences, or in other words "isn't metal at all". That's probably not what is usually meant here by that phrase, but that's how I read it. While I may make generalizations, I do not speak in absolutes unless I mean it. Technically speaking, if the band takes any aspects from a heavy metal band into their sound, they are metal influenced. If they take an aspect from a band which isn't metal, but the aspect originated in heavy metal, than it's technically metal influenced, even if indirectly and very slightly so. The only reason I see for denying all this metal influence in non-metal genres is to try to keep the poseurs out of metal, but all insisting metal isn't an influence on something when it actually is does is make out metal to be less influential than it actually is, which is a discredit to metal.

Quote:


Ganondox wrote:
While the song definitely isn't traditional heavy metal, it still has some elements which clearly originated from heavy metal. Well, anyway, the archives doesn't consider most groove metal to actually be metal, so it's understandable it wouldn't sound anything like metal to you.
That's both irritatingly condescending and completely false. The archives considers groove metal to be a legimate metal subgenre, I have no idea what gave you the idea that it didn't. However, while Pantera's Cowboy's From Hell is unquestionably, entirely metal, the Sepultura song is not, and you should be able to tell if by comparing the riffs alone. In short, the Sepultura song features a characteristic of groove metal riffing simplified to the extremes. Claiming that those riffs are metal would be analogous to cropping an image of a person to only show his hair, and then claiming that said hair is a human being.


Sorry, didn't mean to come off that way. This is what I was referring to:

Is your submitted band really metal? wrote:
Be careful if you submit a band with an ambiguous genre!
We've sometimes seen some bands listed as a genre that would seem fitting, but upon hearing the actual band we've had some pretty bad surprises... So consider the following genres to be "ambiguous", in the sense that if we see a band with one of these terms in their genre field, we WILL be wary:
....
....
Groove metal - this is often an euphemism for mallcore (aka "nu-metal") or alternative rock. Pantera might be metal for the most part, but if their imitators just play tough-guy "jumpdafuckup" chugging, it's not going to fly.

The thing is here mallcore is not strictly the same thing as nu metal as it is used elsewhere. It includes some hard rock, maybe some metalcore, and yes this is a bit circular and counter-effectual, some groove metal as well. See, metal archives is a bit idiosyncratic with it's genre definitions, because elsewhere they are much more loosely defined, and not geared towards separating things into "metal" and "non-metal". Elsewhere things can be more ambiguous, not just "ambiguous". While bands like Pantera and Lamb of God are clearly metal and groove metal, lots of songs that are based in groove metal are not considered metal here. Simplified, yes, but human hair is still human hair, not dog hair, and definitely not a dog. I think Five Finger Death Punch is a good example of groove metal (at least their heavier songs), which is labeled as mallcore here despite having little in common with most nu metal. (Their softer songs fit into alternative rock, but I find the way alternative rock is used here is even more absurdly broad than usual, their heavier songs are NOT alternative rock.) Okay, this argument is a bit absurd as we were originally talking about while the term is nu metal, not mallcore, in the first place, but that's the best way I can explain it.

"so it's understandable it wouldn't sound anything like metal to you." I should probably explain this, because I think this is the sentence that came off as very condescending. I don't mean to imply that it is in fact metal and that you are wrong, what I mean is sounding like metal is completely subjective, and by the very nature of being a metal archives user what you perceive as sounding like metal is likely to fit their definition of what metal is. Let's put in this way, I think that the punk of bands like Raise Against and The Offspring sound much more like traditional heavy metal than death metal does, but I intellectually know that the composition of death metal is much closer to that of traditional heavy metal than punk is, and of course death metal is metal while punk is punk, nothing to do with heavy metal. Sorry, I shouldn't have said that.

Honestly I think metal archives is more than a bit elitist, and often disagree with their means of genre classification. The reason I came is because I'm trying to be open minded and not dismiss this important group of metalheads as a bunch of pricks. Also, metal discussion is metal discussion, I like metal and I'll try to play by the rules here. I said this in my introduction thread, but I'm not sure if I'd call myself a metalhead, I probably listen to less extreme metal and more punk, alternative, and hard rock than most people here.

Quote:

Ganondox wrote:
The vocals are grove metal styled, which indeed did originate from hardcore, but is still slightly metal influenced. Completely hardcore vocals would be higher pitched, more nasally shouts. It's hard to say anything is completely metal or hardcore because the genres take some much influence from each other, the only vocals I'd really call completely metal would be those in power metal. Even death growls evolved from vocals with a slight hardcore influence.
You might be right, I based my comment mostly on the fact that plethora of bands that derived their musical style from 90s hardcore feature an extremely similar style of growling in their music even though there's absolutely nothing to suggest that they would've been influenced by either Sepultura's nu metal or various groove metal bands that influenced the aforementioned.


90's hardcore is fairly metal influenced, at least compared to earlier hardcore. I'm more familiar with 70's and 80's hardcore as my brother is a huge fan of that type punk. I think it's thrash metal which is the biggest metal influence on 90's hardcore, but I'm not sure. There is a fair amount of crossover between hardcore and groove metal, like there is a lot of overlap between metalcore and groove metal.

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logicielcrm
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:41 am
Posts: 1
Location: United States
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 4:55 am 
 

Spoiler: show
hello evrybody ,we have here a gret information for me i'm a new fan of this genre of music and i don't know so much about metal so please help me to have more information about the difference between genre read more
thanks,


Last edited by Azmodes on Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:57 am, edited 2 times in total.
Spam, links removed.

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shouvince
Veteran

Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2005 9:11 am
Posts: 2823
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:04 am 
 

Hi Spambot!

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Azmodes
Ultranaut

Joined: Fri Nov 02, 2007 10:44 am
Posts: 6094
Location: Gradec, Austria
PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 6:56 am 
 

Just ignore and report, please...
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