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lord_ghengis
Metal freak

Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 8:31 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Sat Feb 08, 2014 9:14 pm 
 

You're a very bad person Exigence.
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ObservationSlave
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:27 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 2:55 am 
 

While there are particular subjects that I like to see addressed in lyrics, I still think that the actual music comes first and foremost by far. If I really care a lot about a subject, I will research it myself. I listen to music mainly for the sound, so I would much rather bands be grouped by similarly sounding bands, not similar lyrics.

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Exigence
Age: 28 (Wait, what?!)

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:42 pm
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Location: New Orleans
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:15 pm 
 

I've said this before...if a band is releasing an album on a bigger label, I'm assuming they already have a degree of musical ability. The album is going to be decent. It is the lyrics (and beyond that, vocal melodies carrying those lyrics) that will elevate that music above average. Seriously folks, most traditional/power metal is the same routines over and over. Same with extreme bands. It's that extra special something that gets me hooked.

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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Location: Where the dead rule the night
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:23 pm 
 

Sounds like you just don't know many good bands if the music isn't anything special. I love good lyrics too, but come the fuck on.
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Exigence
Age: 28 (Wait, what?!)

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:42 pm
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Location: New Orleans
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:35 pm 
 

Come the fuck on? If a joke band has great music...I can't listen to it because the lyrics are a joke. It's the same principle. I'm a way bigger fan of good writing - lyrics, poetry, memorable quotes from books/movies. The ability to say something in a concise manner, about any subject, is a true talent. Metal provides that opportunity with more extreme subjects usually avoided by mainstream songwriters. There is a great bit in that recent documentary "Six By Sondheim" that talks about the difference between lyrics and poetry.

All music can either augmented or torpedoed by the lyrics laid overtop. But in my world, they are never irrelevant. The song has to be telling about something. Be it Judas Priest or Tom Waits. I'm gleaning the same satisfaction from both.

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Grave_Wyrm
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:36 pm 
 

It's challenging to imagine lyrical content making riffs sound better. wtf ..

I may be violating Gunther's axiom here.
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Exigence
Age: 28 (Wait, what?!)

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:42 pm
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Location: New Orleans
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 12:52 pm 
 

You can have a great line in a song...and just the way the last word hits as a riff starts. Let's take "Iron Man"...all alone, catchy riff, vocals follow the melody. Fairly basic. But when you plug in the line...

"Nobody helps him, now he has his revenge" as the riff rolls back in. Boom. There it is. The riff is better because you've hooked on the idea of revenge, so it's like a giant black jack boot coming down.

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Grave_Wyrm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:02 pm 
 

That's lyrical construction, though, not content. "Iron Man"'s lyrical construction, content, and musical arrangement are all on a similar plane of "meh" for me. Not their best effort, imo, but I'm not going to say it's bad. If the content changed, I'd be just as unmoved by the music. It would be a decent while in the end unmoving song about .. something else.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:04 pm 
 

Exigence wrote:
Come the fuck on? If a joke band has great music...I can't listen to it because the lyrics are a joke. It's the same principle. I'm a way bigger fan of good writing - lyrics, poetry, memorable quotes from books/movies. The ability to say something in a concise manner, about any subject, is a true talent. Metal provides that opportunity with more extreme subjects usually avoided by mainstream songwriters. There is a great bit in that recent documentary "Six By Sondheim" that talks about the difference between lyrics and poetry.

All music can either augmented or torpedoed by the lyrics laid overtop. But in my world, they are never irrelevant. The song has to be telling about something. Be it Judas Priest or Tom Waits. I'm gleaning the same satisfaction from both.


I agree with most of what you're saying but you're just being way too narrow about it. Before this you said the music would be blander without the lyrical content, when really the two work together. The lyrics being great means a lot about a band, but it doesn't mean the music wouldn't be good without them.
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Exigence
Age: 28 (Wait, what?!)

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:42 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:09 pm 
 

I don't listen to instrumental music so I wouldn't know. I listen to audio books and spoken word/comedy albums just as much as I listen to music. I don't really have an example to bring up 2 bits of music with different lyrical approaches.

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Yayattasa
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2012 7:49 am
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Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:14 pm 
 

I don't get the issue when you can search for lyrical themes in the advanced search. Lyrics-based genre became obsolete (at least here in MA) with that feature. Christian black metal is still black metal with christianity filled under 'lyrical themes'.
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Exigence
Age: 28 (Wait, what?!)

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:42 pm
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Location: New Orleans
PostPosted: Sun Feb 09, 2014 1:17 pm 
 

I'm not arguing with that. I love the lyrical theme search AND the songtitle search. I can just pick out terms and see if a song has been written about that subject yet. It's a fantastic way to find bands.

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ravagingthemassacred
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:30 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 12:13 pm 
 

I've recently been drawn to music I see tagged with the words sludge, neocrust, hardcore, screamo/emo, and d beat. Bands like Oroku, later Disfear, Martyrdod, The Saddest Landscape, Lentic Waters, Dystopia.

I am a newbie to this realm of music and want to understand where one genre starts and the others begin. Is there anyone with a passion for one or more of these genres who can shed some light? A clear, in depth history of the evolution and points of merging surrounding these genre terms would be much appreciated, with plenty of band/song examples.

 So far I've built up a vague understanding in my head that includes these thoughts..
- hardcore is the parent/umbrella genre term (analogous to 'metal') which is synonymous with "underground punk"
- d beat is not really a subgenre, but a description of a technique/sound heard within crust punk. the common string is drumming in the style of Discharge (I cant recognize a D beat by ear though).
- neocrust is a more atmospheric, emo/screamo tinged breed of crust, with more escapist type themes
- emo and screamo are nearly interchangeable terms, though 'screamo' conveys it has a more chaotic sound.
- sludge is doom + hardcore, and modern bigger-name sludge bands often carry a strong 'post'/atmospheric element

Any thoughts?

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Zodijackyl
Lazy Wizard

Joined: Wed Apr 30, 2008 5:39 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 2:35 pm 
 

Hardcore is indeed a very broad term much like metal, but styles tend to be described by scene/era and usually a comparison rather than a new genre term.

D beats are a type of drum beat popularized by Discharge and when "d beat" is used as a genre/descriptor it generally refers to early Discharge worship, which has also moved towards being crusty, as well as sometimes having metal influences like later Discharge.

I have no idea what "neocrust" is.

I'm no expert on this, but emo tends to be punk-influenced stuff leaning towards alternative rock, sometimes a bit grungy. Screamo tends to be more aggressive and clearly derived from hardcore punk and moving towards being more aggressive. There's also some really aggressive screamo that's similar to powerviolence/punkish grindcore like Orchid's "Gatefold"

Sludge was originally a mix of hardcore punk and doom metal, most notable in the NOLA scene. More recently it seems like any band with tube amps and fuzz pedals calls themselves "sludge" regardless of being rock/hardcore/metal, so it's often misused. More recently a lot of sludge stuff has been heavily influenced by Neurosis and Isis, adding atmospheric, progressive, and post-hardcore stylings to sludge and being best described as some sort of atmospheric sludge/post-metal sorta style. That stuff can be a bit hard to describe, though it's far from my expertise in styles.

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ravagingthemassacred
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Joined: Tue Jul 05, 2011 3:30 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:31 pm 
 

Thanks, your reply helped to add more brushstrokes to the picture of what these terms can encompass.

It's interesting to hear that the 'punk universe' isn't analyzed by the same criteria as metal. That makes sense, as individuals with similar personalities/thinking styles tend to gravitate to similar things, music included, and define those things through their lens. Punk tends to be more interpersonally focused, and as you said punk fans organize primarily according to scenes and eras. Perhaps some of the confusion with punk terminology for me arises from observing applied terms which occasionally appear to conflict. however maybe it's just a matter of realizing any given 'genre term' is gonna hold the context of primarily organizing either by scenes/eras, or technical musical differences such as instrumentation, vocals, riffs, all other things which metal fans are used to distinguishing music by.

Understanding emo as related to alt rock, and screamo as more raw and obviously hardcore influenced, with more logical room for aggression, clears some confusion. I kept on seeing various bands tagged with both descriptors. Maybe bands like The Saddest Landscape exemplify the middle ground between screamo and emo?

So then d beat is indeed more of a scene of bands coming from a place of Discharge worship, and not a 'genre'.
What I'm wondering now, is what is the difference between d beat and crust. Would it be fair to say that d beat is a scene within the realm of crust, and so through the lens of a metal fan's way of understanding, d beat is a sub genre of crust? I often see albums equally considered as both d beat and crust and haven't grasped which elements descend from which style.

Yeah I've only very recently come to see that sludge exists outside the realm of bands like Isis and Neurosis, and in fact is rooted completely outside of this. It sounds like sludge's evolution may have included taking on a new identity now in music's current state...almost inherently having associations of atmospheric and progressive elements. Though purists/traditionalists understand historically what sludge has been about and so this new form of sludge is designated as the atmospheric/post metal breed that you mentioned..

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ravagingthemassacred
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 8:34 pm 
 

I really like that the thread title includes the word 'stupid', it's easy to take this genre stuff way too seriously haha. but at the same time it helps speed up the process of understanding, to over analyze :P

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painfulserenity
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:23 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 10:43 pm 
 

I practically know the answer already, but is thrasher metal a real genre? I read a comment on youtube where someone called Five Finger Death Punch thrasher metal. Yeah, don't go to youtube and correct someone on their genres, it gets really ridiculous.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 10, 2014 11:54 pm 
 

You were on a five finger death punch video.... on youtube... No there isn't a thrasher metal. there is thrash metal. Obviously whoever said that barely knows of genres and is probably remembering more of the skater magazine more than the actual genre of music.


just saw the whole bit about lyrics making a band... jesus fucking lol christ.
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painfulserenity
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 12:38 am 
 

Yeah, I felt like listening to some of my old music a couple of weeks ago and someone replied today with that. They even said "To be technical..." :lol:

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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 11, 2014 2:18 am 
 

Uhhh. Emo doesn't really have much at all to do with alt rock or grunge. Emo basically started with old hardcore bands moving toward more personal lyrics, rather than political ones, and adding more melody. Sure there's some crossover, i.e. Weezer, who are vaguely associated with the emo of their time but not really precisely a part of it and have obvious alt rock/classic rock/power pop leanings. Real emo (I mean, once it was clearly its own thing and not so much an offshoot of hardcore) is stuff like this:



Screamo is basically just that, blended with the more aggressive sorts of post-hardcore that started to appear in the 90's, like Drive Like Jehu. Stuff like the aforementioned Orchid, or pg.99, or Circle Takes the Square.

Edit: RE: D-beats.

On a basic level d-beats are just a drum beat and you hear them get used in all sorts of stuff (death metal, thrash) apart from the more obvious hardcore and crust. However, there's a certain sort of strumming pattern that just kind of lends itself to being played overtop d-beats that's basically the mainstay of crust. See this Skitsystem song, for example (the drums are d-beats throughout almost the entire song):

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Yayattasa
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 1:05 am 
 

A stupid question from me: is Dark Metal the first black doom metal album?
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Against Such Things
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 15, 2014 9:13 pm 
 

Not sure if this question belongs here, but is OSDM just a reference to a regional scene, or is there a specific stylistic difference that separates it from other forms of "standard" (i.e, not progressive, technical, melodic, or fusions) death metal? I'm given to understand that it is the latter, but I've never heard an explanation as to what the difference really is.
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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 1:16 am 
 

It's just "old school death metal." The term basically applies to any actual old death metal band (say, from the 80's up through around 1996 or so) or to any modern band playing either in one of those old school regional styles (Florida death metal, NYDM, Stockholm swedeath, Finnish DM, etc.), some mixture of those old regional styles, or something otherwise clearly indebted to the old school approach even if its actual influences are harder to nail down. It differentiates the broader style from stuff like melodeath, modern tech death, brutal death metal, deathcore, etc.
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Exigence
Age: 28 (Wait, what?!)

Joined: Wed Oct 12, 2005 2:42 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 2:19 pm 
 

Do regions ever exist anymore. A kid growing up in New York City could only listen to Swedish bands these days, thus getting inspiration from them. But when he forms a band - he's New York death metal? Makes no sense to me.

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iamntbatman
Chaos Breed

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 4:30 pm 
 

That depends on the style of the band he forms. If it sounds like swedeath, it's swedeath. If it sounds like NYDM, it's NYDM.
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Smalley
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:59 pm 
 

I've listened to a few records of it, but I still can't pinpoint the exact, common characteristics of so-called "blackened death metal"; can anyone help, and specifically, explain which elements were derived from death, and which came from black, in order to better explain the choice of term? Because currently, while certainly qualifying as a form of extreme metal, the "blackened death" records I've heard to date sound less like an obvious combo of black & death, and more like some new, other kind of sub-genre, one that might need a new, more accurate term for it...

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ShaolinLambKiller
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 1:15 am 
 

I think this has been pretty well discussed that really broke down more in the difference of blackened death metal or viceversa which is basically which one the band seems to lean more heavily towards. think of it as a percentage thing..... through either elements of either... predominate vocal style used, production, the amount of varying tempos or through the actual riffs themselves that harken back towards one or the other. So not really a new kind of subgenre just varying amounts of that mix. band X could be a 80/20 mix of blackened death leaning towards death or a 50/50 or 40/60 but they all can be covered under the blanket term of blackened death. rarely I ever see the term of deathly/deathen black metal but it has been used and is still easily understood. But no new created subgenre.
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Ohrwurm
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 6:51 pm 
 

So far blackened death to me has seemed to mostly just get that name for the vocal style combined with (any kind of) death metal. My guess is that production doesn't have enough of a sound, nor do the tempos to really give it the blackened term. Furthermore, riffs are probably the most important part of defining a genre, so black metal riffing with death metal everything else, wouldn't be blackened death. (probably death/black, see below)

Blackened death and black/death are two different genres, making it all the more confusing. I would say that 70/30 or more death/black would be blackened death and everything with more death than that would be black/death, eventually moving on to deathly black, although I haven't heard anyone use that phrase before.
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BIaziken
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Jan 20, 2014 7:02 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 9:26 pm 
 

I have two questions. Firstly, what exactly is mathcore?

Secondly, are rap metal and trance metal real genres? I've seen them both used to describe bands but when I look up the genres here very little comes up.

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Yayattasa
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 22, 2014 10:57 pm 
 

Mathcore is used to describe many sounds. The most common use, though, is to describe highly complex (in a rhythmic sense) metalcore. Think Converge, Botch, The Dillinger Scape Plan, ...

Rap metal is used to tag several bands that rap over metal instrumentation. It's a real genre, but it's quite intrinsic to alternative metal/nu metal, and most of it is left out of MA for that reason.

Trance metal is used to describe Blood Stain Child as far as I know and couldn't be more straighforward: metal (pretty much only melodeath) and trance melded into songs. Hard to say if it's a real genre though, but I'm inclined to say yes.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:31 am 
 

The mainstream press describes anything with heavy guitars and quasi-rapped vocals as rap metal, and the genre label has become almost synonymous with mallcore - even if there's actual metal with rapping, it isn't usually called rap metal.
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Ritual_Suicide
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:47 pm 
 

People who make distinctions between blackened death metal and black/death or death/black are taking genre categorization way too far.

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 24, 2014 7:11 am 
 

Ritual_Suicide wrote:
People who make distinctions between blackened death metal and black/death or death/black are taking genre categorization way too far.

Good to know. :thumbsup:
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Ferturi
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 1:54 am 
 

Ritual_Suicide wrote:
People who make distinctions between blackened death metal and black/death or death/black are taking genre categorization way too far.


Maybe, but I still find it useful to differentiate between the two very different sounds that are described as a mix of black and death metal.

I use "black/death metal" to describe the bands that sound like Blasphemy, Conqueror, Beherit, etc... the very noisy and chaotic ones that also get called "bestial black", "war metal" and other made-up genre names. As there is no official term for that sound, "black/death metal" seems the most appropiate one to me.

On the other hand, I use "blackened death metal" to describe the bands that sound like Behemoth/Belphegor/Angelcorpse. The ones with more easily discernable tremolo picked melodies on the riffs, not as chaotic as the other style but still very intense and usually better produced.

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chinese_mafia
Mallcore Kid

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 27, 2014 11:01 am 
 

Am I the only one who is frustrated with every genre these days ending in "core". Deathcore, Metalcore, Emocore, Thrashcore, Nintendocore, Mathcore, Crunkcore.... Im begining to think they are making these genres up. What are your opinions on "core" genres, are any of them legit?

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Ohrwurm
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:09 pm 
 

chinese_mafia wrote:
Am I the only one who is frustrated with every genre these days ending in "core". Deathcore, Metalcore, Emocore, Thrashcore, Nintendocore, Mathcore, Crunkcore.... Im begining to think they are making these genres up. What are your opinions on "core" genres, are any of them legit?


o_O

I think 'core'-genres were made up by the illuminati to annoy metal elitists.

Seriously, like it or not, these genres have their own sound and therefor are 'legit' genres.
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:18 pm 
 

Bro-core is kinda funny but right.
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 28, 2014 6:27 pm 
 

Yayattasa wrote:
A stupid question from me: is Dark Metal the first black doom metal album?


Dark metal is a term that has changed over time.

The first incarnation of the term was created for music like early Bethlehem and Katatonia's Dance of December Souls, even Deinonychus.

The second form I remember hearing/reading like that was the mixture of black, doom and folk (with an emphasis on the latter). Empyrium is the perfect example, then came stuff like Agalloch which more or less followed that path (see The Mantle).
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Yayattasa
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 11:56 am 
 

chinese_mafia wrote:
Am I the only one who is frustrated with every genre these days ending in "core". Deathcore, Metalcore, Emocore, Thrashcore, Nintendocore, Mathcore, Crunkcore.... Im begining to think they are making these genres up. What are your opinions on "core" genres, are any of them legit?


"these days"? Thrashcore has been around for like three decades already!

Kveldulfr wrote:
Yayattasa wrote:
A stupid question from me: is Dark Metal the first black doom metal album?


Dark metal is a term that has changed over time.


I was talking about the album by Bethlehem.
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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 01, 2014 9:16 pm 
 

Then it is Dance of December Souls.
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