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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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Location: Fortress Northallerton/Napoli, Terronia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:33 am 
 

I was watching some of Kreator's most recent live DVD and I couldn't help but thinking that their current lead player - Sami Yli-Sirniö - was just way too "sweetie, pinky, nicey" in terms of his playing. It was all technically correct, but not at all raw enough for a German thrash band (although, Kreator's recent material does seem to have travelled north into melodeath waters and tellingly this guy's Finnish). But it seems to me that the guy is just a melodeath player and so when they play older stuff it's just way too polished sounding. Definitely the wrong guitarist for the band, I think (even if they have been engaging in some heavy petting with melodeath in recent times).

Additionally, regarding live performances, I think John Sykes was way too over-the-top for Thin Lizzy's old material when he played live with them. Thunder & Lightening is a great album and there's no faulting his performance there but live he would just do all this widdly, widdly, shred stuff over the old songs and it was just ridiculously ill-fitting.

So, who are some of the other 'wrong' guitarists for bands?
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veyita88
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:49 pm
Posts: 394
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:50 am 
 

Since you mentioned Thin Lizzy, this is the first that came to mind. I wouldnt say that it was "wrong", but maybe Brian "Robbo" Robertson wasnt the most obvious choice to replace Fast Eddie Clarke in Motorhead. But im just saying that he wasnt the obvious choice, because i think he did a great job, even if Motorhead are not bluesy in the vein of Thin Lizzy i guess, and TL are not nearly as fast, brutal, punkish or metallic as Motorhead. Another Pefect Day was a great record, and quite underrated, and Robbo just did a good job and i think he added a bit of a melodic touch to their sound. Sadly some fans just coudnt get that line-up.

I would also mention the short lived line-up of Tony Iommi with Jethro Tull. But im not sure, since while Tony Iommi never played proper Progressive Rock, but he was rooted in Jazz and Blues, strong influences of Tull, also i think that early Jethro Tull was a bit more Hard Rock oriented (havent really heard the records prior to Aqualung) but when you think of Tony Iommi you mostly think of early Heavy Metal or Hard Rock and not Progessive Folk Rock.

Quote:
Additionally, regarding live performances, I think John Sykes was way too over-the-top for Thin Lizzy's old material when he played live with them. Thunder & Lightening is a great album and there's no faulting his performance there but live he would just do all this widdly, widdly, shred stuff over the old songs and it was just ridiculously ill-fitting.


I thought that Skyes was currently playing live with Lizzy, but i dont really know. I guess you are right, he might be a bit too Heavy Metal oriented for the Bluesy Hard Rock of Thin Lizzy, but he helped to give Thin Lizzy an extra boost in heaviness and make em "more metal" in Thunder and Lightning, like you said a great album.
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Last edited by veyita88 on Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:55 am, edited 5 times in total.
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ancientorder
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Feb 26, 2012 7:38 am
Posts: 229
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:51 am 
 

Ralph Santolla was certainly the wrong guitarist for Obituary and Deicide when he was in the bands. His style would fit more for some basic heavy metal or power metal band than either of those.

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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
Posts: 6363
Location: Fortress Northallerton/Napoli, Terronia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:54 am 
 

veyita88 wrote:
I wouldnt say that it was "wrong", but maybe Brian "Robbo" Robertson wasnt the most obvious choice to replace Fast Eddie Clarke in Motorhead. But im just saying that he wasnt the obvious choice, because i think he did a great job, even if Motorhead are not bluesy in the vein of Thin Lizzy i guess, and TL are not nearly as fast, brutal, punkish or metallic as Motorhead. Another Pefect Day was a great record, and quite underrated, and Robbo just did a good job and i think he added a bit of a melodic touch to their sound. Sadly some fans just coudnt get that line-up.


In the studio he was great, but he was a dick live. He basically refused to play a lot of the older material.
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veyita88
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:49 pm
Posts: 394
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 9:59 am 
 

Quote:
In the studio he was great, but he was a dick live. He basically refused to play a lot of the older material.


In Robbo´s defense, he actually kind of explains why he was like that that in this interview: http://www.sleazeroxx.com/interviews/br ... tson.shtml

"When they asked my to join the band permanently, after I helped them on the American tour, I said, "If you want me to join the band things are going to have to change, because I can't play all of that Motorhead stuff. That's just not me, and the direction of the band needs to change." I said, "If you want me to join you have to agree to that." They did, and I joined the band... hence the album. I know they were into the album, and over the years they've said so. ".

So basically i guess he refused to play those because it wasnt his style. Its not a good excuse i guess, but the band agreed on that.
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Celtic Frosted Flakes
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Mar 15, 2013 10:49 am
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Location: Svea Rike
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:05 am 
 

Not necessarily a case of "wrong" in the sense, but more so "less right" is Darkthrone's Zephyrous (him leaving). The band was a lot better with him in my opinion.
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The Lions Den
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:12 am
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Location: Italy
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:16 am 
 

That morons calls santolla destroys Obituary first and then Deicide with his shitty silly tech-power-polished-christian-plastic style (if 'style' it's a definition fits to him). :puke:
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Opus
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 22, 2002 11:06 am
Posts: 1600
Location: Sweden
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 10:57 am 
 

Santolla was great on Stench of Redemption! Xecutioner's Return being horrible had nothing to do with him, Obituary made that one suck all on their own.

Speaking of John Sykes, was he ever the RIGHT guitarist for Whitesnake?! I just adore the US edition of Slide It In!

Speaking of Whitesnake and the wrong guitarist: Steve Vai!
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Twisted_Psychology
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:29 am 
 

Al Pitrelli's stint in Megadeth immediately comes to mind. It probably had more to do with the way that album was written but his tone never quite sat right with me for some reason. That said, he's a great guitarist and worked incredibly well with Savatage and TSO.
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Wilytank
Not a Flying Toy

Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2009 7:21 am
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Location: Bedford, PA
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 11:38 am 
 

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
I was watching some of Kreator's most recent live DVD and I couldn't help but thinking that their current lead player - Sami Yli-Sirniö - was just way too "sweetie, pinky, nicey" in terms of his playing. It was all technically correct, but not at all raw enough for a German thrash band (although, Kreator's recent material does seem to have travelled north into melodeath waters and tellingly this guy's Finnish). But it seems to me that the guy is just a melodeath player and so when they play older stuff it's just way too polished sounding. Definitely the wrong guitarist for the band, I think (even if they have been engaging in some heavy petting with melodeath in recent times).


Well, this is the project he's been involved with the longest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQf1GfBvwGg
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maidenpriestmanic
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2013 11:33 pm
Posts: 360
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:15 pm 
 

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
I was watching some of Kreator's most recent live DVD and I couldn't help but thinking that their current lead player - Sami Yli-Sirniö - was just way too "sweetie, pinky, nicey" in terms of his playing. It was all technically correct, but not at all raw enough for a German thrash band (although, Kreator's recent material does seem to have travelled north into melodeath waters and tellingly this guy's Finnish). But it seems to me that the guy is just a melodeath player and so when they play older stuff it's just way too polished sounding. Definitely the wrong guitarist for the band, I think (even if they have been engaging in some heavy petting with melodeath in recent times).


Funny, after reading this, I had to check out that album, and maybe this is because I am big melodeath/power metal fan, I am actually really digging what I am hearing from that album so far.

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somefella
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
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Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:17 pm 
 

I never liked Janick Gers in Maiden though he's a good guitarist. He just doesn't have that magic feel when he solos like Adrian and Dave. THey both just play so smoothly and effortlessly, notes seem to glide off their hands into the air.

Don't like the new Judas Priest guy who stepped in for KK but he has pretty big shoes to fill anyway.
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 1:23 pm 
 

Oliver Amberg in Celtic Frost!! hahah, what garbage. And I really agree about Ralph in Obituary; it's so ill-fitting I have to wonder what they were thinking.

Not about kreator though; after being on the fence for a long time I've come to think of them as the only one of the infamous German trio of thrash bands still making cool music and putting their hearts totally into their live performances. I used to be of the "80s only!!' stance with this band but I don't know, seeing them play a few times and really listening to the new material has kind of changed my attitude. Mille's voice really does sound pretty abused and crapped out lately but the man just pushes himself so hard, I can't help but admire him and his band. And some of those melodies/solos the Finnish guy delivers sound pretty damn good to me. I really don't hear much melodic death metal at all, just thrash with a healthy sprinkling of melody/heavy/power influence.
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Acrobat
Eric Olthwaite

Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2007 8:53 am
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Location: Fortress Northallerton/Napoli, Terronia
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 2:50 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
Oliver Amberg in Celtic Frost!! hahah, what garbage. And I really agree about Ralph in Obituary; it's so ill-fitting I have to wonder what they were thinking.


He's so ridiculously bad it's almost not worth mentioning. Still, he's part of what makes Cold Lake such a cult classic! Funny thing is that the other lead guitarist they had before him, Ron Marks, was really, really good. He did some guest solos on Vanity/Nemesis too and those are one of the few saving graces on that record. I kinda wish he was on Into the Pandemonium, too, maybe that record would have benefited from having a more "musical" guitarist on it.
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uzilover
Metal newbie

Joined: Fri Jul 08, 2011 5:28 pm
Posts: 192
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:12 pm 
 

Tommy Victor playing in Danzig comes to mind. He's a perfectly competent rhythm guitarist, but can't play bluesy stuff to save his life! His tone's all wrong too.

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Metantoine
The XVI, dominar to over 242333 subjects

Joined: Sat Jun 21, 2008 5:00 pm
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Location: Québec
PostPosted: Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:23 pm 
 

somefella wrote:
I never liked Janick Gers in Maiden though he's a good guitarist. He just doesn't have that magic feel when he solos like Adrian and Dave. THey both just play so smoothly and effortlessly, notes seem to glide off their hands into the air.

I disagree. Maybe you think that way since he's featured on the post Seventh Son albums but I like his style, He brought a hard rockin' edge and compared to Dave Murray, he's actually contributing a lot of songs (Wasting Love, Be Quick of Be Dead written with Bruce, The Legacy, The Pilgrim with Steve, Dance of Death,Talisman!). I like his acoustic stuff on some songs. Sadly, he's pretty useless most of the time live.

I was pretty surprised the last time I've seen Melechesh live, fucking Ralph Santolla was the 2nd guitarist, I don't remember if he was good or not since the band is only about Ashmedi anyway!

I was also surprised that both guitarists of Twilight of the Gods (Rune Eriksen and Patrik Lindgren) were good fits for the epic heavy sound of the band since they're both known for their contributions to the black metal scene. I know it doesn't really fit the thread but I was afraid they weren't gonna fit the first time I looked at the lineup.
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Eric Olthwaite

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Location: Fortress Northallerton/Napoli, Terronia
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:24 am 
 

Gers's problem is that he was stepping into a band who were in decline. Smith was one of the band's primary song-writers (and an excellent one to boot), Gers writes a bit here and there... but nothing outstanding. As a guitarist, I think he's excellent and live I think his performances are very entertaining. He works well within the band, but he can't really be blamed for what Maiden have become (I'll give you a hint: the bass player did it).
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tomcat_ha
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Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 8:05 am
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:18 pm 
 

Kreator starting playing gothenthrash with coma of souls anyway.
And yeah i dont like that stuff one bit.

I've seen sodom and destruction live and both do still put on good shows but Destruction's guitar tone is just all wrong. It ruins the old stuff too.

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veyita88
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:49 pm
Posts: 394
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 12:46 pm 
 

Quote:
Kreator starting playing gothenthrash with coma of souls anyway.


DAFUQ

As far as i know, back in the year 1990 the so called "Gothenburg sound" didnt even existed! in fact, even Death Metal was kind of leaving diapers and start walking by itself! (yeah i know there was Seven Churches in 85 but i think that the scene just exploted in the late 80s). The Gothenburg Melodic Death Metal i think that started with the early works of At the Gates, Dark Tranquillity circa 92 or 93, and later In Flames, and even then i guess it wasnt even that well known to be able for Kreator to take some influence.

So no, Kreator started the Gothenburg influenced Thrash since Violent Revolution and i dont understand why everybody complain about that. Coma of Souls is just straight Thrash, yeah its more melodic, but whatever...
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Sonofabitch Thirdgeneration
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Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:02 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:29 pm 
 

The only thing that's in any way "melodic" in Coma of Souls is the guitar solos (and melodic solos are naturally awesome, better than that cat torture on Pleasure to Kill...), the riffing on that album is pure straight up fucking stop at nothing thrash metal. ANYONE who claims otherwise is a fucking idiot, period.

Seriously it's an awesome record and I avoided checking it out for a long time simply because of all those goddamn douchebags who ramble on and on about how "melodic" it is and how it mixes "melody" with thrash metal, all those bullshit claims just screamed Enemy of God to me and I've always known that album is crap so I missed out on some totally awesome thrash metal for many years, thank you so much!

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tomcat_ha
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Location: Netherlands
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 3:38 pm 
 

Im calling coma of souls the first gothenthrash album is because it had a clear influence on many gothenburg death metal riffs. I think this is quite obvious. So yeah its just technically a major influence on that sound.

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Eric Olthwaite

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Location: Fortress Northallerton/Napoli, Terronia
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 4:12 pm 
 

Yeah, it was a huge influence on melodeath (especially on Carcass's Heartwork). Still, Blackfire's performance on that record is stellar he actually has some edge to his playing which keeps things interesting, unlike pinkie, sweetie, honey Mr Finn.
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Sonofabitch Thirdgeneration
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Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:02 pm
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:12 pm 
 

tomcat_ha wrote:
Im calling coma of souls the first gothenthrash album is because it had a clear influence on many gothenburg death metal riffs. I think this is quite obvious. So yeah its just technically a major influence on that sound.

But it hardly sounds anything alike! I just dont get this comparison.

And it's still ridiculously hyperbolic and inaccurate to even affiliate Coma of Souls with any gothenburg metal, you sound like you've never even listened to the cd.

If anything, Iron Maiden had the biggest influence on the gothenburg sound, in fact the whole gothenburg genre is based on the idea of adding Iron Maiden style melodies into death metal. Coma of Souls had nothing to do with it, NOTHING. It doesn't sound a damn thing like gothenburg melodeath and it didnt influence the genre any more than any other metal album out there.


Last edited by Sonofabitch Thirdgeneration on Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
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veyita88
Metal newbie

Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:49 pm
Posts: 394
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:32 pm 
 

Quote:
Im calling coma of souls the first gothenthrash album is because it had a clear influence on many gothenburg death metal riffs. I think this is quite obvious. So yeah its just technically a major influence on that sound.


Is not as obvious as you think. It would have been better if you said that it was an influence, wich i will agree. The influence on the Melodic Death Metal Riffs can be traced back to Iron Maiden or Priest anyway.
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somefella
Metalhead

Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 11:57 pm
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Location: Singapore
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:34 pm 
 

It's conceivable, but a very far stretch. Influencing something and being something is not quite the same thing.
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Evil_Johnny_666
Reigning king of the night

Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2007 8:54 pm
Posts: 3969
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Nov 10, 2013 10:52 pm 
 

Definitely agree with Santolla. I saw Obituary live and him playing his own solos in the old tracks just killed their vibe... Technical melodic solos in Cause of Death songs? You gotta be fucking kidding me.

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Ancelot
Metal newbie

Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2005 9:07 pm
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Location: Brazil
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:28 pm 
 

Twisted_Psychology wrote:
Al Pitrelli's stint in Megadeth immediately comes to mind. It probably had more to do with the way that album was written but his tone never quite sat right with me for some reason. That said, he's a great guitarist and worked incredibly well with Savatage and TSO.


If you think about it, Pitrelli was more like a session musician, that was there just to play whatever Mustaine wanted him to. That said, his performance in the Rude Awakening live album was really really good.

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controlledbleeding
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Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 8:26 pm
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Location: Sydney
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:48 pm 
 

Metallica obviously...

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Kveldulfr
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Feb 16, 2012 12:01 pm
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Location: Chile
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 9:57 pm 
 

Opus wrote:
Speaking of John Sykes, was he ever the RIGHT guitarist for Whitesnake?! I just adore the US edition of Slide It In!

Speaking of Whitesnake and the wrong guitarist: Steve Vai!


I insist: Whitesnake's 1987 album is fucking heavy metal thanks to him! Cryin' in the Rain 87' is just as heavy as Ozzy's Perry Mason and the end of Looking for Love is not far away from the second half of Metallica's Fade to Black.
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Pippin_Took
Metalhead

Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:28 pm
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:08 pm 
 

Totally agree that John Sykes in Whitesnake is legendary. Though Still of the Night would get all the plaudits from me, just for that monster riff.

Steve Vai, on the other hand :ugh:

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veyita88
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Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 9:49 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 3:49 am 
 

controlledbleeding wrote:
Metallica obviously...


Why? both James and Kirk did a great job in the first five albums...and i think that both of them fit the style of the band.
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Sonofabitch Thirdgeneration
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 6:45 am 
 

James and Kirk have done a great job in every Metallica album

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veyita88
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:35 am 
 

Except that Kirk does almost nothing in Snt. Anger.
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Eric Olthwaite

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:08 am 
 

Kirk's never been the most advanced or interesting guitarist around, but he's always been the right man for the 'Tallica job. He's like a shredder with limited chops, I like him. And he didn't do 'nothing' on St Anger he played rhythm, just like James. They do equally little! :P
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Von Jugel
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Joined: Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:49 am
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:35 am 
 

ANationalAcrobat wrote:
Gers's problem is that he was stepping into a band who were in decline. Smith was one of the band's primary song-writers (and an excellent one to boot), Gers writes a bit here and there... but nothing outstanding. As a guitarist, I think he's excellent and live I think his performances are very entertaining. He works well within the band, but he can't really be blamed for what Maiden have become (I'll give you a hint: the bass player did it).


Maiden would not be as good today without Gers.

He plays that "sparkplug" role well with his running around/guitar acrobatics shit. His solos at times are a complete mess, but it's a good contrast to Dave and Adrian playing sticking to playing everything close to note-for-note. I used to not like him but I've come around on him, and if he were to leave he would be missed.

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Riffs
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 12:46 pm 
 

I think Hammet did a fine job in early Metallica but I can see the argument that, as Mustaine's influence wore off, the band became worse. It's not clear-cut but it may seem that way.

I sometimes wonder what would have happened to Metallica between 83 and 89 with Mustaine on board. But that's just speculation.

Besides that, I miss Vivian Campbell in Dio, Criss Oliva in Savatage, John Christ in Danzig and especially, Ross the Boss in Manowar.

The replacements for these guys were not bad players at all, but something has been missing ever since.

It's also tough to imagine Priest without KK Downing.
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Abominatrix
Harbinger of Metal

Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:18 pm 
 

Vinnie Moore plays in uFO now. I didn't go to the show here last month as it was $50, but my friend said he ruined some of the old songs with his "80s shredding". Not sure if I would have found that to be the case or not, but I can see how he may have some tricks that'd really make you miss Michael Schenker...
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Mojo Bundy
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 1:46 pm 
 

Throw me in with the people that like the new dude in Kreator. Though I've never been the BIGGEST Kreator fan, I really love the whole Phantom Antichrist album. I don't really hear "melodeath" so much as just the biggest hooks of Kreator's career, but I kinda think the melodeath term gets thrown around too liberally in general.

And while I wouldn't say I specifically don't like Janick Gers (I agree with the sentiment that he's fun on stage and has contributed well to the songwriting), I have thought the last few times I saw Maiden that they would probably sound cleaner live with one less guitar on stage.

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Sonofabitch Thirdgeneration
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Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 1:02 pm
Posts: 274
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:11 pm 
 

veyita88 wrote:
Except that Kirk does almost nothing in Snt. Anger.

Well he sure busted his ass trying to get this riff down!

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WaywardSon
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Joined: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:48 am
Posts: 903
PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:25 pm 
 

Sonofabitch Thirdgeneration wrote:
veyita88 wrote:
Except that Kirk does almost nothing in Snt. Anger.

Well he sure busted his ass trying to get this riff down!


Key word being trying.

http://youtu.be/dDZ5Zozejh4?t=1m55s
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FasterDisaster wrote:
Is her butthole hairy?

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