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vgmaster9
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun May 26, 2013 1:26 am
Posts: 71
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:11 pm 
 

Many people wonder if deathcore is a metal genre, but what I'm more interested in knowing is if grindcore is actually metal. It's fully accepted within the metal community, yet it doesn't seem to be a true category of metal. Thing is, while grindcore does include elements of extreme metal (such as thrash metal and death metal), it also includes elements of hardcore punk, noise, and industrial. The metal part is just one of grindcore's elements, not the whole thing that makes it a genre. It's more of a style of extreme music than metal. Anyone else agree?

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Erosion of Humanity
Metalhead

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Location: Schaumburg, Il
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:40 pm 
 

I'm sure most people who know the subject matter would agree. You basically answered your own question with the end of that paragraph there. So I'm not really sure what else to say or where you're actually yoing with this, was there more you wanted to discuss?
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Metantoine
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:42 pm 
 

Not really... Some grindcore bands are more metallic than others (hence being included here) and some are more rooted in hardcore, noise or whatever. It's not very complicated, really.
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YesIam
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Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:44 am
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Location: Kenya
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:42 pm 
 

On one side you have the punk influenced grindcore such as Napalm Death, Extreme Noise Terror and all those, and on the other side you have the death metal influenced ones such as Repulsion, Terrorizer, Impetigo and so on. So you have one style of grindcore that has more in common with punk than metal, and one style that has more in common with metal than punk.

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CF_Mono
Metalhead

Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:21 pm
Posts: 1549
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 8:55 pm 
 

Even bands like Napalm Death aren't that punk-sounding relatively speaking. The metal influence is definitely there enough to make it enjoyable to metalheads. I think there is a clear line between bands that are grindcore and bands that are powerviolence or hardcore punk. I can tolerate a lot of grindcore but not so much the hardcore influenced stuff. I was shocked when Early Graves was taken off the archives, and I'm still a little puzzled as to why All Pigs Must Die and some other seriously crucial metalcore bands aren't on here. They're still by far more metallic than most metalcore/grind bands when you look at stuff like, I dunno, Converge, Code Orange Kids, or Dillinger Escape Plan. Hell, even those guys should be included here considering we have included other bands on that side of the line like The Secret.
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:06 pm 
 

Well grindcore came out of crust punk, so there's still a lot of bands that are more rooted on the punk side and not really metal (by this sites standards anyway, I'm sure some would disagree). But yeah, in short there's lots of grindcore that could be considered metal as well as a lot that wouldn't make the cut.
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Doomed Cowboy
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Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 8:21 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:34 pm 
 

I don't really see grindcore as metal- metal influenced, yes, but not metal. Its one of the bastardized part-punk part-metal genres that gets thrown around, and covered on both sides of the fence, along with sludge and metalcore and such.

Really, I'd argue punk and metal crossing over is really a bad thing in general, but then I'd be in the minority to argue that. Because everybody likes thrash and the genres that grew from it...
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Foulchrist
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 10:36 pm 
 

Considering some of the commonly accepted genre names that exist to separate relatively trivial differences in music, I sometimes wonder why no "divider" ever caught on to distinguish the more metal-oriented grind bands from the punk ones. I suppose the line is just a bit too blurry in many cases, but still; the "are grindcore bands metal?" question seems to appear frequently, and the answer is always "yes, when they play metal and not punk".
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:22 pm 
 

Well deathgrind kinda serves that purpose... but I suppose it just makes another awkward boundary between deathgrind and metallic grindcore... genres can be pains.
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Ritual_Suicide
Metal newbie

Joined: Sun Jul 06, 2008 11:39 am
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:53 pm 
 

Doomed Cowboy wrote:
Really, I'd argue punk and metal crossing over is really a bad thing in general, but then I'd be in the minority to argue that. Because everybody likes thrash and the genres that grew from it...


Not to derail the thread, but that's kind of silly since every metal genre is influenced by punk to different degrees.

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Doomed Cowboy
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Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 8:21 pm
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 14, 2013 11:58 pm 
 

Ritual_Suicide wrote:
Doomed Cowboy wrote:
Really, I'd argue punk and metal crossing over is really a bad thing in general, but then I'd be in the minority to argue that. Because everybody likes thrash and the genres that grew from it...


Not to derail the thread, but that's kind of silly since every metal genre is influenced by punk to different degrees.

Well, the influences in cases of early metal are really near nonexistant, although there a bit. Speed metal has some, but then again you didn't need those for speed metal to exist, as it was only an increase in speed and a bit more expression. From there, it is definitely a much more important thing. I've just really grown tired of everything needing harsh vocals or some other extreme influence in it for it to get much attention within the metal community. Then some people go around pissed wondering why the average idiot seems to think that all metal is screaming over noise.
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sleepOOO
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Mon Aug 05, 2013 11:20 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:08 am 
 

Technically grindcore is a fusion genre, metal and punk. Though grindcore is on the more metal side of the fusion while power violence is on the punk side. Grindcore = metal, powerviolence = punk.

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somefella
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:48 am 
 

I would consider grind as a very distant branch of extreme metal. But then again, these things get very arbitrary as well.
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antonthereaper
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Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:14 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 1:54 am 
 

I've say it would depend on the band, just like how it is with Metalcore. Some are more punk and some are more metal! Deathgrind seems to lean towards metal tho!
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Turner
Metalhead

Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2002 2:04 am
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Location: Germany
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:34 am 
 

somefella wrote:
I would consider grind as a very distant branch of extreme metal.


i like this explanation - mostly because i rarely find grindcore has anything in common with any 'standard' metal, but also cause i think it sucks. ha ha ha.

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AppleQueso
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:46 am 
 

Both, individual bands/albums might be metal on a case-by-case basis. I can't imagine someone can listen to an album like Napalm Death - Harmony Corruption or Terrorizer - World Downfall and tell me they don't hear a strong amount of proper metal.

Doomed Cowboy wrote:
Ritual_Suicide wrote:
Not to derail the thread, but that's kind of silly since every metal genre is influenced by punk to different degrees.

Well, the influences in cases of early metal are really near nonexistant, although there a bit. Speed metal has some, but then again you didn't need those for speed metal to exist, as it was only an increase in speed and a bit more expression. From there, it is definitely a much more important thing. I've just really grown tired of everything needing harsh vocals or some other extreme influence in it for it to get much attention within the metal community. Then some people go around pissed wondering why the average idiot seems to think that all metal is screaming over noise.

Goddamn dude Ghost is one of the biggest bands in underground metal right now and they aren't "extreme" in the slightest.

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Turner
Metalhead

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:03 am 
 

antonthereaper wrote:
I've say it would depend on the band, just like how it is with Metalcore. Some are more punk and some are more metal! Deathgrind seems to lean towards metal tho!


what about blackgrind?

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antonthereaper
Mallcore!!!! Kid!!!!!!!! (actual rank!!!)

Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:14 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:35 am 
 

Turner wrote:
antonthereaper wrote:
I've say it would depend on the band, just like how it is with Metalcore. Some are more punk and some are more metal! Deathgrind seems to lean towards metal tho!


what about blackgrind?


Are you picking on me because of my "Blackcore" topic? (Altho this did make me laugh.)

And to be on topic: no, i don't know of any "Blackgrind" bands! Mabye i'll invent it!

UPDATE: Oh wait, apparently there is such band! it's name "Fukpig". But I'm not just going to say it's "Blackgrind". I'll let others decide and they can tell you! OK?
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Wilytank
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:35 am 
 

antonthereaper wrote:
I've say it would depend on the band, just like how it is with Metalcore. Some are more punk and some are more metal! Deathgrind seems to lean towards metal tho!



The "core" part of grindcore doesn't refer to metalcore. It refers to hardcore punk.
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xThe__Wizard
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 12:06 pm 
 

All the early grind bands were really into metal. I mean take the A-side of Scum, definite metal influence while the B-side is what I think of as "trve" grindcore. Later Extreme Noise Terror has a death metal sound to it, while their early stuff is really punk-y. It sounds weird but that is just what me and a few other people think. It can be metal, sometimes its not.
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HeySharpshooter
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Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:12 am
Posts: 402
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:33 pm 
 

Yes. Yes it is.

Read the book Choosing Death: The Improbable History of Death Metal and Grindcore and you'll see what I mean.

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Atropus
Metalhead

Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm
Posts: 679
Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:39 pm 
 

Grindcore is an extreme evolution of crust punk, while death metal is an extreme evolution of thrash metal.

So...... while it's not a genre of metal per se, it bears a lot of extreme metal similarities, has a lot of metal influences (as did crust punk), and crosses over a lot with death metal.

So no, it's not a genre of metal, but yes, it is relevant.

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Zerberus
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:29 pm
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Location: Silkeborg, Denmark
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:45 pm 
 

Stuff like hardcore punk, grindcore and death metal all fits under an extreme music label, but as a genre I think "pure" grindcore is generally more closely to punk than to metal, where death-grind is probably more rooted in metal.
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Atropus
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 2:52 pm 
 

Yep, same "concept" as death metal, applied to punk.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
Posts: 12179
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 3:06 pm 
 

antonthereaper wrote:

And to be on topic: no, i don't know of any "Blackgrind" bands! Mabye i'll invent it!

UPDATE: Oh wait, apparently there is such band! it's name "Fukpig". But I'm not just going to say it's "Blackgrind". I'll let others decide and they can tell you! OK?




I don't consider fukpig blackgrind since there is pretty much a lack of grind riffs and blast beats. it's all more rooted in d-beat with black overtones to it.

if there was something that is blackgrind I would have to nominate my grind band 54R mainly cause I didn't think it would ever be on this site cause are grindcore but we did a split with Zebidah Crowe and based on that split someone had submitted us and we were accepted.... though it was under the tag of being black metal and the name was incorrect cause they thought the name was S4R instead of 54R. But after it was all corrected we still remain.

Also grind came from punk. And overall as it was plainly stated... grindcore is metal when they are playing metal.
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Rykov
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Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:52 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:21 pm 
 

Grindcore isn't derived purely from punk. That's powerviolence-- punk taken to the extreme. Grindcore will always have at least a tinge of metal to it.
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Last edited by Rykov on Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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antonthereaper
Mallcore!!!! Kid!!!!!!!! (actual rank!!!)

Joined: Thu Aug 29, 2013 2:14 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 4:27 pm 
 

Wilytank wrote:
antonthereaper wrote:
I've say it would depend on the band, just like how it is with Metalcore. Some are more punk and some are more metal! Deathgrind seems to lean towards metal tho!



The "core" part of grindcore doesn't refer to metalcore. It refers to hardcore punk.



I already know what "core" means! I was just comparing 2 genres that can have different ratios at times!
(Although a person like me doesn't consider Metalcore "real Metalcore" unless it's more Metal than Core.)
If it was named "Hardhead Punk", then we would have "Grindhead" "Metalhead" "Post-Hardhead" and so on.....


ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
if there was something that is blackgrind I would have to nominate my grind band 54R mainly cause I didn't think it would ever be on this site cause are grindcore but we did a split with Zebidah Crowe and based on that split someone had submitted us and we were accepted.... though it was under the tag of being black metal and the name was incorrect cause they thought the name was S4R instead of 54R. But after it was all corrected we still remain.


Blackgrind then? have any samples?
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HeySharpshooter
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Sep 17, 2006 3:12 am
Posts: 402
Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:10 pm 
 

Blackgrind: Anaal Nathrakh, Naked Whipper, Plague Widow, Male Misandria, Revenge(to my ears anyway)

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Morton Salt
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:25 pm
Posts: 55
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 7:13 pm 
 

Here's a good blackened grindcore band: Special Buddy Discount

http://specialbuddydiscount.bandcamp.com/

Fuggin' crunchy and fast as fugg.

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ShaolinLambKiller
King Asshole

Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2007 6:10 pm
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Location: United States
PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 9:53 pm 
 

antonthereaper wrote:
Blackgrind then? have any samples?



well this is one of the songs off the split that got us accepted here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REm3upDzq3w

and the follow up to that which is shorter songs but have that bm tinge to it
http://54rgrindcore.bandcamp.com/album/ ... loven-hoof


and no Rykov, grindcore doesn't always have a tinge of metal to it. And that's not powerviolence either. You really aren't very familiar with either if that's honestly what you believed.
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Rykov
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Joined: Mon Jun 03, 2013 11:52 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 15, 2013 11:05 pm 
 

ShaolinLambKiller wrote:
and no Rykov, grindcore doesn't always have a tinge of metal to it. And that's not powerviolence either. You really aren't very familiar with either if that's honestly what you believed.

I'm pretty sure it does. Granted, I'm not the biggest fan of grindcore, but in my experience, that's the difference between grindcore and powerviolence: powerviolence is not so much a melding of metal and punk so much as punk taken to its extreme, whereas grindcore very distinctly takes elements of metal and punk. The formative bands of the former-- Siege, Crossed Out, No Comment-- and of the latter-- Napalm Death, Repulsion, Terroriser- exemplify this. I'm not saying every single grindcore band has a distinct metal flavour to it, I'm saying grindcore is borne of taking attributes of metal and punk and putting them through an accelerator, whereas powerviolence was simply a more dissonant, rawer, faster offshoot of hardcore punk.
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Dragunov
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:52 am 
 

Grindcore is grindcore, I thought that was painfully obvious.
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Zero_Nowhere
Metalhead

Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2008 10:11 pm
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Location: Australia
PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:50 am 
 

Foulchrist wrote:
Considering some of the commonly accepted genre names that exist to separate relatively trivial differences in music, I sometimes wonder why no "divider" ever caught on to distinguish the more metal-oriented grind bands from the punk ones. I suppose the line is just a bit too blurry in many cases, but still; the "are grindcore bands metal?" question seems to appear frequently, and the answer is always "yes, when they play metal and not punk".


Usually those nitpicky genre divides grow out of a division between the scenes. Somehow grind never quite picked up the scene warfare mentality that drove much of the demarcation other punk-derived subgenres ended up with.




As for blackgrind, there's Watchmaker. Still a solid amount of DM influence in there but also a fair bit of blackened elements.

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 4:42 am 
 

Dragunov wrote:
Grindcore is grindcore, I thought that was painfully obvious.

Come on. You know exactly what the question is actually about.
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Dragunov
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 11:04 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Dragunov wrote:
Grindcore is grindcore, I thought that was painfully obvious.

Come on. You know exactly what the question is actually about.


:p Of course I do, and I think it's pretty obvious that grindcore is it's own separate thing, regardless of what influences make up it's core sound. Would you call P.L.F. a thrash metal band? Would you call Assück a death metal band? I certainly wouldn't, even though those styles of metal play a big part in what gives those bands their own sound. Then you have many, MANY bands that don't take any influence from metal at all, and are instead influenced mostly by anarcho/crust punk and noise, yet they also are not either of those types of music. Grindcore could be thought of as metal's ugly second cousin that everybody has a sneaking suspicion of having no proper lineage from metal, even though he shows up to about half of the family reunions.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 12:09 pm 
 

To what question is your post an answer? Not to whether grindcore is considered metal or not, at least. You can't be oblivious to the fact that metal, here, is used as a blanket term, and the question of grindcore's metalness obviously doesn't necessitate it being included in one of the known metal subgenres.

Well. I'm sure OP had his answer.
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Dragunov
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 1:07 pm 
 

Uh, I'm pretty sure I was agreeing with the OP? Not quite sure what you're on about, I believe I was pretty clear. :scratch: Gotta love when grindcore threads pop up on metal forums...
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dontlivefastjustdie
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:04 pm 
 

Dragunov wrote:
Grindcore is grindcore.


Yep.

Is grindcore metal? No, grindcore is grindcore.
Does grindcore take influence from metal? Sometimes.

The long and short of it is that it may or may not have metal influence and whether or not it does has no bearing on whether or not it's "grindcore". Similarly, grindcore and powerviolence share so many similarities that the line is too blurry (especially this far from the progenitors of the genres' sounds) to say a band is grindcore if they have metal influence and powerviolence if they don't.

The real lesson to learn here is listen to Repulsion all day every day.
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Dragunov
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 3:32 pm 
 

dontlivefastjustdie wrote:
Dragunov wrote:
Grindcore is grindcore.


Yep.

Is grindcore metal? No, grindcore is grindcore.
Does grindcore take influence from metal? Sometimes.

The long and short of it is that it may or may not have metal influence and whether or not it does has no bearing on whether or not it's "grindcore". Similarly, grindcore and powerviolence share so many similarities that the line is too blurry (especially this far from the progenitors of the genres' sounds) to say a band is grindcore if they have metal influence and powerviolence if they don't.

The real lesson to learn here is listen to Repulsion all day every day.


Nailed it, especially the last sentence. :headbang:
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Zakillah
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 16, 2013 7:37 pm 
 

To answer the question at hand...yes. I think Grind is part of Metal. Grind has definitly influance in Thrash Metal; alot of Grind riffs are Thrash riffs, just played alot faster or more straight to the point.
Of course Grind isnt all that a narrow genre as some people believe it to be. You´ve got the powerviolence, you´ve got the more experimental, noisy stuff, you´ve got Goregrind (which in itself is a very vast genre, no, dont laugh I mean it) and you´ve got good old school Grind. And all in between, like DeathGrind.

For good old school Grind, like, and I guess most people agree on this, Insect Warfare made their point and everyone loves them. And hey, guess what, they are on the archives.

I dont like the diversion of Punk and Metal. I think Punk infused Metal is awesome and vice versa. Hey, its how Thrash Metal came to life and nobody argued that Thrash isnt Metal. Its two genres that are very close and only good things come off it when you mix them; which I think Grind is; extreme Punk fused with Metal.
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