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Doomed Cowboy
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Joined: Fri May 03, 2013 8:21 pm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 7:54 pm 
 

I think he's going for the idea that metal is rebellion, including rebellion against itself. Satanic stuff is a rebellion against established religion, and the Christian bands are rebelling against the now (arguably) established idea that metal is anti-religion.

A decent argument, but not enough to sway opinions, nor really one that's realistic.
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AcidWorm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:29 pm 
 

I don't understand Frigid's point of view. There are plenty of metal bands that sing about Christianity and always has been. Thrash for example was a lot about rebellion when it was conceived in the early 80s. Yet there have been quite a few Christian thrash bands since the 80s even. I don't get how another band singing about Christianity is fresh.
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Doomed Cowboy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:33 pm 
 

I wouldn't say another band sing about Christianity is original, but neither would a band singing about Satan or Tolkien, would it?
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:39 pm 
 

Who ever said it would be? Nobody, by my count. The whole idea of 'rebellion against rebellion' trying to make singing about Christianity edgy is just silly, too. Maybe in a parallel universe where it wasn't the dominant form of religion for hundreds of years in the fastest developing parts of the world...

The whole preoccupation with cliches like Satan, Tolkien or whatever else is just kind of short-sighted, too; tons of bands are very obviously doing things far away from those. It's a bit pointless to complain about those being overdone these days. Just focus on good lyrics instead.
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AcidWorm
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:51 pm 
 

FrigidGround wrote:
I can't think of anything more butthurt-inducing to metal nerds than a band that writes lyrics consisting solely of worship of Christ, all the while getting rave reviews (as they should) from pretty much everybody who is mature enough to acknowledge and accept the fact that some people have different worldviews.

You accuse 'metal nerds' as being immature yet look at your hypocrisy.
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Nochielo
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 8:57 pm 
 

Oh, I'm not bored in the slightest, so long as it is handled adequately. Some lyrics are cringe worthy (from both christian and anti-christian sides) but when done right, it's really not that much of a problem regardless of how much the subject has been addressed. I don't really care much for a lyrics' message but rather its execution, anything done right is good.
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thrashmaniac87
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:24 pm 
 

FrigidGround wrote:
Empyreal wrote:
Right, because there's NOTHING in between "worship of Christ" and "FUK ur GOD" right? No way that Satanic or anti-religious lyrics can be done intelligently? Plus your whole reason behind this is that you want to see metalheads get butthurt; yeah, I can tell you're a real paragon of intelligence. :roll:


Also, the idea of people in north America or western Europe still that mad about religion is pretty laughable.


How is it laughable? You make it sound like something has happened that would make non-believers Christian. Christianity is the still the main cause of homophobia, sexism and racism. (this is usually where internet metal heads call me a "PC fagget") Many of them are anti-sex, anti-condom, anti-abortion, anti-science etc. I do not find these to be laughing matters.
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Nithoggr
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 9:28 pm 
 

Although I personally prefer nihilistic and death worshiping lyrics, I can find much enjoyment in Satanic or anti-religious lyrics. For example, who can deny the perverse impact of Funeral Mist's intelligent warping of Biblical passages or the simplistic fun of early Bathory's ridiculousness?
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Huldrelok
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 09, 2013 11:24 pm 
 

While I may have been attracted to anti-religious themes for the 'wrong' reasons, after years of listening I can put things in perspective. It's too hard to agree with organized religion and I still have the same attitude toward religion as I did when I was 16. I have found my own spirituality, and that just fuels rage against religion, that takes something special everyone experiences and turns it into a 'process' rather than a discovery. But basically no since i started listening to Black Metal eight years ago anti religious themes still interest me very much, its hard to see the real truths in it but they are there.

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Cthulhu_Fhtagn
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:32 am 
 

thrashmaniac87 wrote:


How is it laughable? You make it sound like something has happened that would make non-believers Christian. Christianity is the still the main cause of homophobia, sexism and racism. (this is usually where internet metal heads call me a "PC fagget") Many of them are anti-sex, anti-condom, anti-abortion, anti-science etc. I do not find these to be laughing matters.


How is Christianity the cause of racism? To my knowledge, there were no whites (or blacks, asians, hispanics, etc) in the bible, just middle-eastern people and Jews. As for Christians being "anti-science" that is just for macro-evolution. Where did you get those ideas?
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:37 am 
 

FrigidGround wrote:
getting rave reviews (as they should) from pretty much everybody who is mature enough to acknowledge and accept the fact that some people have different worldviews.

Oh, yes. The music is so incredibly superior to everything that the detractors cannot be thinking clearly. They're simply too immature to accept the fact that christians, as superior people, are creating superior music.
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FrigidGround
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:08 am 
 

Lol @ everybody proving my point in this thread

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ModusOperandi
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:26 am 
 

FrigidGround wrote:
Lol @ everybody proving my point in this thread

Your arguments aren't nearly as cogent as you think they are or else they wouldn't have generated the number of responses they have and the effort put into them. Moreso, attempting to distance yourself and take some sort of intellectual high ground with limp-wristed, snobbish posts such as the one quoted aren't doing anything to dispel stereotypes, much less convincing anyone to take your side lest they risk becoming like you. In summary, you ain't that special, Snowflake.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:04 am 
 

Bit dishonest to lead people on that you're one of the "older people bored by anti-religion stuff" that the OP was addressing when you're a 22 year old Christian, don't you think, FrigidGround?
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bloodycumshit
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 4:03 am 
 

Luckily for me the bands i listen to these days are tending to draw away from religion, which is a relief as i was getting very bored with religious lyrics and visuals. Screaming about it over and over wasn't making any changes or getting any messages through (and it definitely ain't anything edgy anymore) as i found with politics and punk.
Religion to me is a never ending argument which leads to dramas, would much prefer the subject out of my music if i can help it

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Burnyoursins
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:03 am 
 

FrigidGround wrote:
Lol @ everybody proving my point in this thread


Pretty lame fucking response there, buddy. Considering no one in this thread has come close to proving this... What did you call it? A point? Right, whatever that may be. Seriously, what the hell is your point?

Anyway! Have to be honest, I don't listen to a whole lot of stuff dealing with the (dis)like of religion. Not anymore, at least. There are a few bands that do it well, Project Hate for example. I'm very staunch in my views as an atheist, but most of the death metal I listen to deals with other subjects.
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693
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:47 am 
 

I am a older person and yes I am bored by anti-religious "stuff". I don't even bother checking a band out if they sing about that stuff.

I am also bored of any lyrics about politics/religion. What even bores me more are these people that follow some modern "satanic" religion that has some "deeper" meaning; thelema, LaVey, luciferiansism, sethism etc.. I don't think religion and politics or the hatred of it has anything to do in music, it just shows that the person writing the lyrics don't have enough life experience to write about something that wasn't invented by someone else. But that is just my opinion, and I really don't care about these type of bands. The kids still think it is cool, so the gimmick won't go away. It just changes a bit every 5 years or so.

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aaronmb666
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:56 am 
 

I used to be really into Deicide's lyrics, but it really went downhill when they were off Roadrunner. To hell with gods lyrics were entertaining, but got old fast. I really enjoy Dark Funeral's stuff, particularly the stuff from SOTBA. I checked out Immolations newer lyrics and didnt care for them.

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Abominatrix
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Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 12:15 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:48 am 
 

iamntbatman wrote:
Bit dishonest to lead people on that you're one of the "older people bored by anti-religion stuff" that the OP was addressing when you're a 22 year old Christian, don't you think, FrigidGround?


:lol: Indeed.

Anyway, I'm much older than the OP (hee hee) and I must say that a good anti-religious rant or celebration of iniquity is glorious.

Of course I'm open to many different styles and lyrical identities, in metal and outside of it, but I do believe that general contempt of accepted religious norms and suppositions are a strong part of metal. It isn't that every band has to be this way, of course, but a strong tradition has grown up around such subjects and I fully support it. Hail Satan. ;)
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:04 pm 
 

Anti-religion can be pretty broad and spawn some original material, but the typical way it's done bores me to death. Desecrate jesus, burn the cross, yeah, fucking badass dude :roll: . I'm tired of Satan in metal, it's just so fucking boring and redundant at this point. I mean, the only people who are going to find it remotely shocking or offensive are the concerned parent types, and still, I'm sure they'd take back young white guys pretending to believe in Satan in a second if it meant they could get rid of gangsta rap.
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AppleQueso
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:17 pm 
 

Satan and violence are straight up tradition. It wouldn't feel right if there weren't metal bands pushing that angle.

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 12:18 pm 
 

dystopia4 wrote:
Anti-religion can be pretty broad and spawn some original material, but the typical way it's done bores me to death. Desecrate jesus, burn the cross, yeah, fucking badass dude :roll: . I'm tired of Satan in metal, it's just so fucking boring and redundant at this point. I mean, the only people who are going to find it remotely shocking or offensive are the concerned parent types, and still, I'm sure they'd take back young white guys pretending to believe in Satan in a second if it meant they could get rid of gangsta rap.


Well hang on a minute there. DO you really think the whole point is just to shock and offend people? I never did. It's a celebration. "These Devillish Things" are not there for our parents, but for us! It's cool if you don't want to celebrate, but many of us are revelling in it most gleefully. Also, what's being a white boy have to do with anything?
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Exigence
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:12 pm 
 

It's funny to think of all the international stuff that gets news coverage because some Islamic organization was offended...but on the flipside there are thousands of death/black metal bands doing shows every weekend and nobody bats an eye. When nobody cares about your anti-religious theatrics...you're not making an impact. A death metal band isn't going to inspire a terrorist attack or for people to mobilize against their local church.

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:20 pm 
 

Exigence wrote:
It's funny to think of all the international stuff that gets news coverage because some Islamic organization was offended...but on the flipside there are thousands of death/black metal bands doing shows every weekend and nobody bats an eye. When nobody cares about your anti-religious theatrics...you're not making an impact. A death metal band isn't going to inspire a terrorist attack or for people to mobilize against their local church.


Once again making the weird assumption that somehow all the talk of "violence, bloodshed and devilworship" are for the benefit of outsiders who don't even listen to this kind of music.

And considering the amount of protests, attempted censorship and bands being shut down that goes on (in "civilised western countries") I'd say your point here is invalid, except I don't really feel that it's significant anyway. By that logic we should all feel victorious and happy when a show gets shut down or an album cover gets banned. I actually do know a guy like that but I think it's counterproductive thinking by people who have never really had anything they loved taken away from them. It does raise an interesting point to suggest that great art can be created in times of great adversity, though.
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Last edited by Abominatrix on Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:21 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
dystopia4 wrote:
Anti-religion can be pretty broad and spawn some original material, but the typical way it's done bores me to death. Desecrate jesus, burn the cross, yeah, fucking badass dude :roll: . I'm tired of Satan in metal, it's just so fucking boring and redundant at this point. I mean, the only people who are going to find it remotely shocking or offensive are the concerned parent types, and still, I'm sure they'd take back young white guys pretending to believe in Satan in a second if it meant they could get rid of gangsta rap.


Well hang on a minute there. DO you really think the whole point is just to shock and offend people? I never did. It's a celebration. "These Devillish Things" are not there for our parents, but for us! It's cool if you don't want to celebrate, but many of us are revelling in it most gleefully. Also, what's being a white boy have to do with anything?


I don't think it's just about shock value (although it's quite clearly part of it), and I'm not adverse to "devilish" content, I just think it has largely become watered down and redundant with a lot of bands. It's not even the nature of the content in itself, just that it's often being manifested in the same ways it has thousands and thousands of times before. Don't mean to a grump, the same thing over and over again just gets boring (although, obviously there are quite a few bands who do something original with it).
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:24 pm 
 

It's about context. I'd be pretty bored listening to a new Deicide or Immolation song railing against Christianity, but if Satan's Host or Hell want to spin a classic 50s-style horror tale about Satan or about a corrupt priest or whatever, I'd gladly take it - it's about how it's delivered, whether it's a generalized, sermonizing hate or a more storytelling, poetic take. I think that's what Abom is getting at here.
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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:28 pm 
 

Dystopia: I don't disagree, but you have to take everything on a case-by-case basis. I mean Mystifier's lyrics are clearly a hundred times better than Deicide's despite the odd english slipup, and both come at the subject from, we would think, compatibly satanic ideological frameworks. I guess it shouldn't be surprising that the route of early Deicide is an easier one to take and probably inspired more bands to copy it. Still, there are good and poor ways of expressing everything from love songs to heartfelt odes to killing one's family and pets. :P

Edit: yeah, Empyreal's got it, as usual.
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Last edited by Abominatrix on Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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dystopia4
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:29 pm 
 

Yeah, for sure. It's not the themes in itself I have a problem with, just the sheer number of bands that are so derivative and obvious about the way they implement it. However, I'm always exited when a band successfully pulls something off that has nothing to do with the lyrical tropes you'd expect.
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Atropus
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:39 pm 
 

In a nutshell, I think anti-christianity has run it's course.

I know how Americans and quite a few Europeans have to still deal with religious nutters on a daily basis, but even though I'm back in Canada, I still don't have to deal with Christianity on a daily basis.
It's not part of my existence, it has nothing to do with me or my life.

I think it's just time to move on to other things.
When was the last time an extreme metal band really focused on being FOR something, or really tried showing a certain ideology in a positive light???
Hatred is a good artistic motivator, that's for sure, but it can't be the be-all-end-all of your existence. It's a means to an end, but not an artistic goal.

Black metal is actually a lot more interesting when it goes more into occultism, paganism, "philosophical Satanism", or just the good ol' fantasy/mythological/horror themes of olde.....
Not only have I always been interested in this stuff, but it makes me feel a band has something of actual value to offer and aren't just one dimensional and catering to teens.

Varg Vikernes has always been one of underground music's more controversial figures, but i like what he said about his own music:
The music of Burzum has never been political or contained any religious/anti-religious messages at all. The music of Burzum has always been strictly emotion and fantasy/mythology based, or if anything, has shown his own European cultural inspirations in a positive light.

I think that's far more interesting than just oppositionist music.....

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 2:48 pm 
 

Atropus wrote:
In a nutshell, I think anti-christianity has run it's course.

I know how Americans and quite a few Europeans have to still deal with religious nutters on a daily basis, but even though I'm back in Canada, I still don't have to deal with Christianity on a daily basis.
It's not part of my existence, it has nothing to do with me or my life.

I think it's just time to move on to other things.
When was the last time an extreme metal band really focused on being FOR something, or really tried showing a certain ideology in a positive light???
Hatred is a good artistic motivator, that's for sure, but it can't be the be-all-end-all of your existence. It's a means to an end, but not an artistic goal.

Black metal is actually a lot more interesting when it goes more into occultism, paganism, "philosophical Satanism", or just the good ol' fantasy/mythological/horror themes of olde.....
Not only have I always been interested in this stuff, but it makes me feel a band has something of actual value to offer and aren't just one dimensional and catering to teens.

Varg Vikernes has always been one of underground music's more controversial figures, but i like what he said about his own music:
The music of Burzum has never been political or contained any religious/anti-religious messages at all. The music of Burzum has always been strictly emotion and fantasy/mythology based, or if anything, has shown his own European cultural inspirations in a positive light.

I think that's far more interesting than just oppositionist music.....


I wouldn't say that it's more interesting by default, but I think you are on sound ground. NO reason why satanism can't be positive, and plenty of black metal bands link it with paganism, the occult and so forth. Degrees of success will vary, obviously, as they should.
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:42 pm 
 

To go into more detail about my feelings on the subject:

I generally do vaguely agree that there's sort of a de facto gulf between the anti-religious lyrics of much of metal and the (negative) way that Western religious tradition has affected the society that I live in. At the same time, though, there are all sorts of factors that contribute to this gulf. For one, many of these bands are European and thus not really immersed in the way that Christianity continues to be the driving force behind American social and political discourse and policy. Obviously it's incredibly important historically but it just doesn't come into play in everyday life in Europe anything close to the extent it does here in the US.

Perhaps more importantly, though, is that it's sort of difficult to imagine a marriage between the fantastical, romantic side of metal and serious, contemporary criticism of Christianity and Christian influence on society. I'm sure it's not only possible but it probably already exists somewhere in metaldom. So, I generally tend to gravitate more toward black magic/occult/ritualistic/death worship type lyrics, with demons and Satan and all of that as sort of elements of fantastic myth rather than merely the anti-Christ. These sorts of lyrics just more often do a better job of feeling natural with the music.

Or it could simply be that the type of black metal I prefer tends to work better with these dark romantic themes, whereas the more hateful, anti-religious lyrics tend to be preferred in bands that play a blastier, more aggressive style of black metal that I just don't find myself being attracted to very often.
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droneriot
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:30 pm 
 

You people all need to listen to some Nunslaughter. Abominatrix is probably the only one in this thread who shouldn't leave the hall. You people make me sad. :(
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Littlewolf
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:06 pm 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Littlewolf wrote:
I'd say it's a more of a convention, an unwritten law, a gimmick even for some bands to go on about Satan, evil, demons and such stuff, as is sort of expected of them (example - Gorgoroth), and if they didn't I'd be profoundly worried about them... :lol:
...and I must admit, it amuses me immensely...

I wouldn't give a rats ass what garbage was spouted by whatever vocalist Gorgoroth will have for the next 18 months, if Infernus still wrote riffs like in Krig, Måneskyggens Slave, Huldrelokk or Bergtrollets Hevn.


Indeed. But let us, for a moment, imagine they cease using corpsepaint and the usual iconography. It just wouln't be the same, would it?
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Back Stabbath
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:28 pm 
 

This thread kind of reminds me of the relevance of the Anti-Islamic League (Janaza, Seeds of Iblis etc) and whether or not it is a real movement or a bunch of pranksters/religious cynics or somewhat imaginative conservative Christian hicks.

Abominatrix wrote:
NO reason why satanism can't be positive, and plenty of black metal bands link it with paganism, the occult and so forth. Degrees of success will vary, obviously, as they should.


If it is real it could actually become really interesting. The Sufi guy who wrote the Tawasin (an Islamic hadith) spoke of the positive qualities of Azazel/Iblis (the Islamic Satan), and then there's the whole Yazidi culture who identify Azazel as their primary deity. The latter, while denying any link to Satanism, have entered the modern Satanic "pseudo-canon", even Anton LaVey used one of their (supposed) Holy texts in the Satanic Rituals.


Last edited by Back Stabbath on Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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John_Sunlight
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:32 pm 
 

When I see a new black metal band with songs about satan and darkness and stuff like that I'm pleased. Black metal is what I like, and that stuff is part'n'parcel. It's not as if the original satan and darkness BM bands were really blowing minds, so it's not a step down when the new bands aren't blowing my mind with esoteric or little-discussed topics
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Atropus
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Joined: Wed Aug 21, 2013 3:02 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 9:39 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
You people all need to listen to some Nunslaughter. Abominatrix is probably the only one in this thread who shouldn't leave the hall. You people make me sad. :(


Never actually read their lyrics. Musically, they're pretty cool.

Havohej is definitely a band that needs new subject matter. Them and Grand Belial's Key. I hate to see talent go to waste trying to shock a dead horse.
NO ONE is shocked/offended by it!! I can't remember the last time a middle-aged Mormon mother bought a black metal album.

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John_Sunlight
President Satan

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:22 pm 
 

Well that's just the thing, it's not about shocking people, it's about how those things mesh with the music within the context of the total artistic endeavor. They mesh well.
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ModusOperandi
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Joined: Thu May 06, 2010 12:52 am
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:25 pm 
 

droneriot wrote:
You people all need to listen to some Nunslaughter. Abominatrix is probably the only one in this thread who shouldn't leave the hall. You people make me sad. :(

Dude, I'm from Cleveland. OF COURSE I know Nunslaughter. One of the handful of bands from this area over the years actually worth a damn or two.
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Huldrelok
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Joined: Tue Sep 01, 2009 10:01 pm
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:35 pm 
 

It is also interesting thinking about religion in history, it has literally spawned most interesting subjects that I hear a lot in metal music; Supernatural (Spirits, Ghouls, Zombies, etc), Good/Evil (Moral Subjects), Magic (Witches, Tribal, etc), History (As told by stories in religious works), Sky Observation (Concerning our solar system and stars beyond), im sure there is so many more. Religion has just about conjured up some of the craziest stuff that has manifested itself into ideas in our age.


Last edited by Huldrelok on Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Burnyoursins
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Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:59 am
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:21 am 
 

droneriot wrote:
You people all need to listen to some Nunslaughter. Abominatrix is probably the only one in this thread who shouldn't leave the hall. You people make me sad. :(


Fuck yeah, man.
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The_Beast_in_Black wrote:
SleightOfVickonomy wrote:
...no one still knows what it's supposed to be about.

Well, I reckon there's a pretty good chance it'll be about gory tits.

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