I've always felt the same, Joel's early material especially is just pure In the Sign of Evil/Obsessed by Cruelty-era Sodom worship. For what it's worth I think TH are one of the best thrash revival acts around, their sound changes slightly with each album (more punk influence on Chemistry of Consciousness, traditional heavy metal on Primal Future) but the quality is pretty consistent and they always bring it live.

I also think that "pizza thrash" applies more to revival bands that have more a light-hearted, humorous image and lyrical themes, more stuff like Municipal Waste, Gama Bomb, and Lich King. Nothing against any of those bands mind you, Municipal Waste put on one of the best live shows I've seen.

Pizza is great…

No with ananas

I like plenty of straight ahead thrash or whatever other more direct music, but there's a line... I don't want shit that insults my intelligence. I think if you need to turn your brain off to enjoy something then that's not really a good quality.

I'm not sure how Municipal Waste and even less Toxic Holocaust, are insulting to someone's intelligence.

Haven't listened to either, just saying I don't like the idea of "turn your brain off and you'll like it."

I hate that line of defense too. It's like the inverse of that "You need to have a high IQ to be able to appreciate this", but at least that's funny in certain contexts. "Turn off your brain" arguments sound like they're saying "I don't want to contend with any problems with the music so I'll just say that the problem is with you for demanding too much".

Having said that, I do think that Municipal Waste have a more creativity in their music than their detractors would claim. I'm not a hardcore fan, but I do remember being really entertained by their song "Cut Off" as well as its music video.

Sometimes is necessary turn off the brain

Absolutely relevant to the discussion here.

I view "pizza thrash" the same way I view "poser metal". Poser metal a mostly derogatory term made up by metalheads in the 80s (definitely in Greece but I think it was a universal thing dating back to Balloff's early years!) to describe bands like Motley Crue, Ratt and Poison. Over the years, its bite has softened and plenty of people I know have embraced the term and say "yeah, I love all the poser stuff" (sounds fuller with the greek term "pozerilikia" but anyway!). Pretty much how I see things playing out for the early revival bands (it's been 20 years now... not so young anymore) and the younger ones too. I always loved Tankard more than plenty of serious bands and I think fun and humor in a world of "serious" evil, satanic themes has its place and actually is a very valid artistic position too. Ι certainly don't watch just horror films or drama, I love comedies and I can take my metal light-heartedly just fine too. Gama Bomb are my favorites from that bunch. But the most I have laughed was with that tiny, brilliant sound effect at the end of Lich King's Black Metal Sucks video.

It has absolutely nothing to do with intelligence however, artist's or audience's.

The System Has Failed is the best album after Youthanasia (better than Cryptic) and the last truly awesome Megadeth album, even if it's basically a Mustaine solo record but so are most Megadeth albums after Cryptic really...) My unpopular opinion about Megadeth: Killing is My Business is AWESOME and so is So Far, Dave Mustaine is one of my favorite metal vocalists ever, his style just complements the Megadeth material perfectly, the snarl, the sarcasm, the weirdness and DECADENCE (especially on So Far) of it all. PERFECT. Nasal, weird, cats screeching, whatever, I will die on this hill, Megadeth would be considerably less awesome without Dave's vocals. And to finish off, Youthanasia is the 2nd best Megadeth album ever (sorry Peace Sells! you're both 10s!).

The only Megadeth fillers I know in their golden years (-1995) are most of their covers, excluding Anarchy..., which is pretty great. Everything else they recorded up to Youthanasia needs to exist. Sure, not every song is on the level of their best songs but that's not my definition of filler.

I'm shocked that Empyreal has never listened to Municipal Waste and Toxic Holocaust (and I note that he mentioned recently that he had never listened to Death Angel).

Hazardous Mutation & The Ultra-Violence are essential thrash. Toxic Holocaust have not produced anything on that level but the early stuff is pretty important to the development of the blackened thrash movement that dominates the scene at our present moment.

I subscribe word for word…

Ps Just a word on my pizza…
it seemed obvious to me that I just wanted to say that some pizza “thrash” groups are ok with some exceptions(ananas of course)

That's pretty close to how I'd describe myself too. I certainly prefer the more complex/artistic styles myself but the idea that being frivolous or goofy is somehow inherently inferior just rubs me the wrong way. At the risk of sparking another "disliking Pantera is classist" argument, the idea that simple or less cerebral metal essentially starts on a negative platform that must be overcome (usually by simply not being what they are) and that not liking it makes you superior in some way is some fart-sniffing nonsense. Nobody is required to enjoy everything but if your mental rubric includes anything along the lines of "this insults my intelligence" as though you were ever the target audience in the first place then yeah I'm sorry you're on some dweeb shit. I listen to the first few Municipal Waste albums and think man, nobody is quite as good at doing what those albums are doing, and if the fact that a non-negligible portion of their songs are about beer and partying makes them for brainless dummies, then that just means the brainless dummies are getting more enjoyment out of art than you and I don't think that reflects poorly on them.

At this point it's obvious I'm being a hypocrite because I'm basically just doing the exact equal-and-opposite thing to what Emp and Keeper are saying and I think basically every single Alestorm style "comedy" metal band is fucking awful and I hate them all without exception. Now you get to decide: Is it because I'm an arrogant dick who doesn't care about internal consistency in my own arguments as long as I "win"? Is it because metal is one of the few areas where nerds have more social capital than extroverted jocks and I resent how my community has no issues playing the part of the bully in the one sandbox where anybody takes them seriously? Am I just a little bitch baby who feels defensive because music I enjoy is being called stupid and I feel attacked by association? Is it because I enjoy having fun and find it irritating that dorks who apparently quietly sip water in the dark are viewing themselves as "above" me because they don't enjoy fun like they're the fucking Dragon of Dojima instead of boring lameasses? Up to you!

The real lesson here is that absolutely everything on earth is cringe as fuck as long as you aren't part of the in-group it was designed for.

Well I wasn't even saying you have to be "serious" or anything. I was saying if the argument is "it's good if you don't think at all when watching/listening" then I just doubt it's actually very good at all... that just comes off as damning with faint praise in a way. "It's not actually good but if you stop thinking you can enjoy it." Personally just not a good argument for a defense of something, for me.

As for "insulting my intelligence" that's all just a matter of individual cases. Van Halen, AC/DC and Pantera are fine. I think they write some badass music with conviction to it. I'm much less into "party metal" bands like newer Tyr or Amon Amarth as I'd said a few pages ago, or comedy metal like Powerwolf, Gloryhammer and all that. Just a matter of taste. I guess using the phrase "insulting my intelligence" could come off pretentious or something, but however you shake it I think that stuff is awful. No teeth to it; comes off like they are writing lamer music on purpose as a joke or something.

Edguy and Helloween have done some fun comedy metal songs because they just had better music than some of these bands and the comedy was only in the lyrics - and also not the kind of lame "satire" attempts many metal bands try to milk humor out of, which just isn't that funny to me.

I was under the impression that the term "pizza thrash" came from a comedic youtuber's video and had no intention of anything actually being called "pizza thrash," becoming a reality.

Lyrics have to be terrible to turn me off good riffs and music. So if Municipal Waste or Lich King have goofy lyrics I don't care as long as the band is killing it. If the riff is grabbing me and making me move, or jumpdafuckup, then I'm set.

But while I've enjoyed both bands live I don't find them incredibly compelling on albums.

I am just going to add some comments here because I deeply love those three bands. Playing like Eddie Van Halen, Angus Young, or Dimebag Darrell, is probably one of the most impossible and difficult things to do in music, not because of the complexity of their compositions, but because of the raw talent and creativity that those guitar players had in their instrument. Try to do a better hard rock or metal album than 70s Van Halen's debut album, Highway to Hell/Back in Black or Cowboys from Hell, no band could surpass those guys in their prime. You can argue that stuff like Gorguts, Dream Theater, Joe Satriani, or any kind of progressive and technical musician or band writes more intricate music, but I really can't listen to more than 20 minutes of the G3 tour without falling asleep or wanting to listen to something else, I don't think that the harder the music is to play, the better, that's just a wrong way to look at art.

Not disagreeing with you, musically they're all very good, which is what I said. I was saying I didn't need music to be ultra-serious thematically or "mature," only that I have a limit for how silly it gets.

And if nothing else, Toxic Holocaust was a thrash revival band that acknowledged the development of extreme metal and utilized them in sort of an ouroboros kind of way. Haven't listened to anything of theirs since An Overdose of Death (or if I have, it's been about 15 years), but the early stuff is undeniable in that way. Still, they and Skeletonwitch (with their "and the kitchen sink" approach, especially on the masterstroke that is Beyond the Permafrost) got it. Even Megadeth understood that... enough, at least on The System Has Failed. It's honestly why these albums hold up 16-20 years later while most of the pizza thrash always felt like a flash in the pan. A deep dish pan, if you will.

Except Gama Bomb. They've always felt like the exception to the rule because those guys, on their A-game, could fucking riff! Yeah, their albums got pretty samey over time - their last album promises a new direction, but that'll remain to be seen on a follow-up - but frankly, even the ones that especially felt redundant still have more meat than most. Top quality BBQ meat on a pizza.

KK wrote Hell Awaits,Kill Again,Praise of Death,Black Magic,Piece by Piece..

It’s enough for me..

Ops wrong thread

Can you expand on that? I think I kind of get what you mean, but I'm unfamiliar with the expression "and the kitchen sink" and what you mean exactly by it here.

It's an album that's like a bit of everything. It draws more from thrash and black metal, but there's bits of other kinds of metal in it.

since the serpents of the light deicide it doesn't do anything interesting.

"Serpents of the Light" and "The Stench of Redemption" are my two favourite Deicide records.

I mean, there was Till Death Do Us Part, which let's be honest, was pretty lame all things considered. Everything else just kind of blends together.

Yeah, I agree. They are very balanced and consistent.

I believe the full quote is: "Throw in everything but the kitchen sink." Apparently Skeletonwitch threw in that as well.

Blast beats are some of the worst musical inventions possible, metal drumming is frankly appalling and extremely boring to listen to in almost every case.

Iron Fist is the best Motorhead album.
Some tracks definitely feel tossed off, but then again spontaneity often works to the benefit of a band with great chemistry (e.g. classic Motorhead) and it's not like anything else by that lineup gave the impression they slaved away at it until they decided it was perfect. It's got probably the most melodic, lyrical lead guitarwork of Eddie Clarke's career with the band, yet without sacrificing rawness or sleaze like later guitarists sometimes would.

Tons of metal drumming without blasting. What kind of drumming do you think would fit better for genre that feature it like black or death metal?

I can get blasted out for sure but in general I find metal drumming some of the best drumming to focus on.

Fast beats, cool fills, double bass, and some blasting, is great to listen to for me.

Man, if you hate metal drumming so much what are you doing in a metal forum? Also, one of the worst opinions that I read in the thread.

Vintersorg's voice is annoying and unlistenable.

I liked Stench as well.

It's ok, but not great. The songs are off, but the raw production is cool.

You know metal bands use other instruments besides just drums, right?

Underground metal drummers can definitely get tiring with endless blasts and/or double bass, but then there's also what I guess I would call "arena metal" with boring as shit drums that are way to simple and uninvolved. I long for the late 60s and early 70s when all the heavy bands had jazz drummers. That's cool as shit.

Lee Harrison don’t approve….

But I can agree on some brutal tech bands that overwhelm the listener…

Yeah, its not blasting as much as drummers who treat the entire song as a drum solo. Its why I can't listen to bands like Nile that long, the drumming overwhelms everything else IMO. As much as I love Pete Sandoval on the first two MA albums I think as he went on he began to get the same way. There isn't much room for any other instruments to breathe as there is always another roll or fill going on.

Judicious use of blasting is fine IMO, but when the song is an endless blast I get bored unless its low in the mix. I don't find double bass as overbearing.

i love voice of vintersorg.. haha

I have got two albums with him on vocals (Jordpuls and Urd), and I see what you mean. They’re atypic but I appreciate them on these records.

Metal drums can be tremendous - more of them should be like Bill Ward or Randy Foxe however.

I totally get what he's talking about with blast beats. They have a time and place, but IMO are often overused and make an otherwise good song hard to listen to. Sometimes less is more.

Whether or not blastbeats work depends so much on the actual drum sound, the mix, etc. I love it in (for example) Nemesis Divina, perfectly natural sound, the blastbeats give the impression of some rampaging legion running down a hill. And the drums are low in the mix in that album so they're not swallowing up any guitar or bass frequencies.
With dodgy drum sounds and/or overly loud drums, blastbeats (as well as constant double bass) can shift way too much focus to the drums and spoil everything.

Putting production and trigger sounds aside, some drummers abuse blastbeats yeah, but then again not every kind of metal calls for a "swinging, soulful" drummer, or some Bill Ward/Nicko type guy. It just depends on what atmosphere a band is going for.