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"true metal" ... it seems that the only allowed influence is the "true metal" itself (or closely in spirit/purpose styles such as hardrock).

AltoVariago wrote:

"true metal" ... it seems that the only allowed influence is the "true metal" itself (or closely in spirit/purpose styles such as hardrock).

False.

Uh, Rhapsody is true metal? I'm lost.

that a bunch of true metal bands are influenced by punk

Lately I've been just skimming over ideas in my head thinking up random names for new metal styles ("Bread metal" for example). Now, however, it's dawned on me that so many genres now exist that there don't seem to be many new possible directions to take metal in without fitting an already pre-defined mould.

Is it really possible that we can still create a new genre of metal and actually have quality music come out of it? Im sure we can still create useless crap that plays 50 different fills a minute and simply plucks random notes, but is there really anywhere left to take things?

2) has anyone yet tried to mix "glitch" music (such as Pan Sonic) with metal?

AltoVariago wrote:

2) has anyone yet tried to mix "glitch" music (such as Pan Sonic) with metal?

Genghis Tron?

Lol I don't know, maybe Technical Circus Metal? It sounds a bit like one of those gimmick genres that wouldn't make it very far, though.

blackmetalcore

Sooner or later it's bound to happen, if it hasn't already.

That said, I would like to see the extreme metal approach fused with the musical theory/song structure approach of electronic music, like Drum-and-Bass

blackmetalcore

Sooner or later it's bound to happen, if it hasn't already.

There is a subgenre of dnb these days some people are calling 'deathstep' (guys like Current Value, Dylan, Limewax). Its fairly ridiculous - double bass, over-driven drums, odd rythms and evil sounds effects, all distorted to the max. I think it would make an excellent and unique cross-over genre if mixed with some guitar and growls.

I don't think the next development in metal is going to happen by people sitting down and deciding to be original. It's going to happen almost by accident, with someone composing and playing something which turns out to sound unique.

I also don't think it will necessarily involve a direct fusion of different genres, as a lot of people see as the way of progression.

TheUglySoldier wrote:

Right on. Well said.

CorpseFister wrote:

Dylan has been doing crazy shit like that for years. His TechFreak label is probably closest to this, along with old-school Renegade hardware.

I was referring to song structure and progression theory. Drum-and-Bass does not follow verse-chorus-verse in any way, but does return to important themes/sounds as the song progresses. I think that BDM, by tightening up the song writting process and returning to vital sounds/elements, the end result would be far more musical/appealing/groundbreaking. The songs might be 20-40 seconds longer, but also become more memorable.

New Genre? Yes - since current BDM pretty much goes no where, while providing the listener a good time in the process.

TheUglySoldier wrote:

Right on. Well said.

Maybe I'm wrong, but here's my reasoning.

I say that because prog rock bands have tried to mimic classical music with movements (also known as 'dickery' to detractors) whereas blues-oriented forms of rock, even though psychedelic rock includes a lot of jamming, are more repetitive. It seems like there is a dichotomy between trying to make douche-like pretentious movements and just straight out jamming in jeans and a dirty t-shirt.

Listen to 'Tales from Topographic Oceans' (Yes) or 'Hemispheres' (Rush) and then listen to 'Disraeli Gears' (Cream) or 'Surrealistic Pillow' (Jefferson Airplane). To me there is a bigger distinction there than between psych and most other forms of rock or blues.

All great albums. Well, except Surrealistic Pillow.

When bands experiment, they're often just thrown into the "Experimental" or "Avant garde" Catogory.

This has been brought up before, but what about Bethlehem's self-created "Dark Metal" genre? A few other bands are listed as Dark Metal. What's that actually entail?

Snowgrave wrote:

...Or maybe Orchestral thrash metal...

Wow I would really love to hear something like that D:

Author:	awm [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:37 pm ]
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Yeah actually punk is the opposite of prog. That's what killed the prog rock movement.

Author:	awm [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:38 pm ]
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The Wikipedia page for punk also lists psych as a stylistic origin. Go figure.

Author:	Kruel [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 4:42 pm ]
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Yeah, some psych bands were proto-punk, as some were proto-prog.

Author:	AltoVariago [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:53 pm ]
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1) recently a band a called Pyramids mixed "Sigur-ros-ian" reverbs and vocals with blast beats and black metal-like outburst... probably they will never be seen as a metal band but that sounded fresh 2) has anyone yet tried to mix "glitch" music (such as Pan Sonic) with metal? 3) anyway i really think that the only way that metal can (artistically) survive is to look out and try to catch anything relevant to re-build itself in new, fertile, and hopefully more interesting, forms. 4) the main problem i have with "true metal" is that it seems that the only allowed influence is the "true metal" itself (or closely in spirit/purpose styles such as hardrock). Or even these new "metalcore" wave (that mostly to me sounds like a cross of emopop elements with cheap inflames/maiden imitations): after 32 years since Motorhead or 25 years since Trash Metal it's not a big deal anymore mix punk/hc and metal (furthermore when bands like Napalm Death or Converge did it with more imagination). 5)as a nu-metaller id like to see a comeback of "rap-metal", but in a form that in hiphop part of the equation has absorbed the revolution of Dalek and Anticon (cLOUDDEAD and the likes) and in the metal part of the equation has absorbed the new sludge variations... 6) on the other hand i trust that someone i the black metal scene comes up with something innovative, anything can be "blackned" imo, from jazz to ambient

Author:	Kruel [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 6:55 pm ]
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AltoVariago wrote: "true metal" ... it seems that the only allowed influence is the "true metal" itself (or closely in spirit/purpose styles such as hardrock). False.

Encyclopaedia Metallum: The Metal Archives https://forum.metal-archives.com/

The creation of new metal genres. https://forum.metal-archives.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=43246	Page 3 of 3

Author:	AltoVariago [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:01 pm ]
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Kruel wrote: AltoVariago wrote: "true metal" ... it seems that the only allowed influence is the "true metal" itself (or closely in spirit/purpose styles such as hardrock). False. of course i didnt make reference to bands like, say, cynic (that play in a "tr00" style such as death metal but enhanced it with other stuff) but to the more "purist" ones such as manowar or rhapsody of fire (dont tell me that using an orchestra with a wagnerian flavour is an innovative device) or motorhead (which are great but also very autoindulgent and autocelebrative in their rock'n'roll routine)

Author:	Kruel [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:06 pm ]
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Uh, Rhapsody is true metal? I'm lost. Anyway, do you understand that a bunch of true metal bands are influenced by punk?

Author:	awm [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:15 pm ]
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Most metalcore bears little resemblance to hardcore. The vocals don't sound like hardcore vocals. They are usually just less than intelligible screams. Metal with gang vocals or something would be cool. It's like the ass end of both metal and hardcore, if it in fact does owe allegiance to them both... even Converge.

Author:	AltoVariago [ Sat Oct 11, 2008 7:46 pm ]
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Kruel wrote: Uh, Rhapsody is true metal? I'm lost. by the tone of your first question it seems to me that the local (im italian) heroes are looked upon such as the "Cradle of Filth" of their genre, im right? and YES, i know Kruel wrote: that a bunch of true metal bands are influenced by punk and that was precisely an element of innovation when they appeared in the past (be it Maiden, Metallica or Napalm Death) cause these guys were the first to catch a certain breed of hardcore in their metalsound. Both styles rely on aggression and speed, we all know that. But why then if a band try, say, to mix heavy guitars and breakcore (another genre that relies on aggression and speed, a strongly distorted irregular form of drum'n'bass) probably many purists would not call it metal? musically (not sub-culturally) speaking in a a sense punk/hc has been always in the dna of metal (cause of its guitar-based research of extreme, damn even "Paranoid" can be considered proto-punk): there are styles (or feature of styles) that are far more easier to "metallize" so in "true metal" you can easily find punk influences or hardrockish macho bravado or symphonic grandeuor but rarely you'll find musique concrete extravaganzas (industrial music), quiet drones (please dont count the ambient BUrzum) or James Brown sensuality-filled samples (such as in hiphop), mainly because all these things are worlds away from heavy-metal-values and way of listening music

Author:	AltoVariago [ Sun Oct 12, 2008 11:05 am ]
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ummm no more replies... did my last posts ruine this beautiful thread?

Author:	Boomsticks [ Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:	Re: The creation of new metal genres.
Crick wrote: Lately I've been just skimming over ideas in my head thinking up random names for new metal styles ("Bread metal" for example). Now, however, it's dawned on me that so many genres now exist that there don't seem to be many new possible directions to take metal in without fitting an already pre-defined mould. Is it really possible that we can still create a new genre of metal and actually have quality music come out of it? Im sure we can still create useless crap that plays 50 different fills a minute and simply plucks random notes, but is there really anywhere left to take things? There are surely many ways that metal can evolve. It just takes someone who can think right outside the box. The reason we can't contemplate a new metal sub-genre is because we're too narrow minded. It takes someone really original to create a new genre. But it can happen, and it will. There will always be room for new genres.

Author:	SepticTomb [ Sun Oct 12, 2008 5:44 pm ]
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Nothing new is happening because no bands are trying anything new due to a resistance on the part of the audience to listen. I regularly see bands live that I enjoy a lot but leaves the rest of the audience cold because there's not enough FACE MELTING SOLOS DUDE or drumming that lets you know where to bang your head. A very easy way to see some new stuff would be for more metal bands to be trying truly epic-scale compositions that aren't just stringing a bunch of vaguely related songs together. I would kill for a band like Morbid Angel to do a one-track, 45 minute composition, but of course their fans wouldn't like it so it won't happen.

Author:	awm [ Sun Oct 12, 2008 6:27 pm ]
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Morbid Angel may as well do that. No matter what the fans are going to say.... Gateways to Annihilation... Blah this doesn't sound like Altars of Madness.

Author:	Wordless_Hon [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 4:49 am ]
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AltoVariago wrote: 2) has anyone yet tried to mix "glitch" music (such as Pan Sonic) with metal? Genghis Tron?

Author:	Crick [ Tue Oct 28, 2008 9:05 pm ]
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I've come to realise that I've explored metal more due to constantly desiring more aggressive and frantic styles of music. I've gone from your basic NWOBHM to a bit of power before jumping into folk metal, only to head straight for black metal, backtracking to death before finally taking the only remaining course: avant-gardey experimental things. I've now almost left metal itself, exploring ambient work (I'm in love with Moevot at the moment.) and some of the weirder avant-garde bands (Carnival in Coal for example, though I'd like to try out some more Oxbow. That's some mentally damaged music right there.) Could it be that once we've seemingly exhausted the possible directions to take aggression, we head in the more "artsy" direction? Even the depths of obscurity are being constantly plumbed nowadays. Noise rock getting fused with doom and stoner, or peculiar violin-backed riffs in Sleepytime Gorilla Museum and Unexpect. Hell, Einsturzende Neubauten are a fairly well known industrial avant-garde band. Where else do we take things once even art seems to begin drying up?

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Author:	AltoVariago [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 9:17 am ]
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Wordless_Hon wrote: AltoVariago wrote: 2) has anyone yet tried to mix "glitch" music (such as Pan Sonic) with metal? Genghis Tron? mmm their electronic component sounds like to owing much more to electro-clash, techno or even synth-pop than glitch music (the music originated by malfunctioning digital technology sounds) but nonetheless they sound fresh in a way, while i dont like too much this music i give them that they tried to explore new avenues... thank you for information anyway ps i've found a little strange that Genghis Tron are not in the archives, while we can find their very reviled peers I've Wrestled A bear Once (another heavily computer-programmed "grindcore" band)... that sounds lot more silly and repetitive (while interesting so some extent)

Author:	206 [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:06 pm ]
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LiViNgDeAdVirUs wrote: Lol I don't know, maybe Technical Circus Metal? It sounds a bit like one of those gimmick genres that wouldn't make it very far, though. A heavier Primus?

Author:	206 [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:26 pm ]
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Metal can and will most definitely evolve into newer genres - and some of them might even be worthy of a listen. The more extreme styles (I speak generally) seemed to progress by sacrificing trash. Brutal Death bands (as a whole) moved so far from thrash that they adopted the Riffs-to-nowhere approach - totally foregoing open string tremelo riffs during verses, etc and just plowing away, from riff to riff within a song structure similar to grindcore. I do not think BDM has reached its peak yet. There is still plenty room for refining the style, approach - the methodology, so to speak - and I think the final product will be construed as a new genre, because, by this time, what we now call BDM will be truly fucking stale. That said, I would like to see the extreme metal approach fused with the musical theory/song structure approach of electronic music, like Drum-and-Bass or Intelligent Dance Music. I say this because the Riff-to-nowhere approach is getting old.

Author:	Dark_Gnat [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:02 pm ]
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blackmetalcore Sooner or later it's bound to happen, if it hasn't already.

Author:	Manic616 [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:05 pm ]
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Dark_Gnat wrote: blackmetalcore Sooner or later it's bound to happen, if it hasn't already. Its already happened, I cant remember the band name, but there is defintly a band on the archives already. They were brought up in the old FFA thread. Edit: Ok they arent metalcore but close enough: http://www.metal-archives.com/band.php?id=108161

Author:	newp [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:23 pm ]
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Quote: That said, I would like to see the extreme metal approach fused with the musical theory/song structure approach of electronic music, like Drum-and-Bass There is a subgenre of dnb these days some people are calling 'deathstep' (guys like Current Value, Dylan, Limewax). Its fairly ridiculous - double bass, over-driven drums, odd rythms and evil sounds effects, all distorted to the max. I think it would make an excellent and unique cross-over genre if mixed with some guitar and growls.

Author:	Human_Abstract [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:46 pm ]
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Dark_Gnat wrote: blackmetalcore Sooner or later it's bound to happen, if it hasn't already. the band ur talking is abigail williams.. they´re EP is really a mix of "core" with some melodic bm but the album kinda lost much of his "core" influences and its more of a simphonic bm band.

Author:	206 [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:54 pm ]
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CorpseFister wrote: There is a subgenre of dnb these days some people are calling 'deathstep' (guys like Current Value, Dylan, Limewax). Its fairly ridiculous - double bass, over-driven drums, odd rythms and evil sounds effects, all distorted to the max. I think it would make an excellent and unique cross-over genre if mixed with some guitar and growls. Dylan has been doing crazy shit like that for years. His TechFreak label is probably closest to this, along with old-school Renegade hardware. I was referring to song structure and progression theory. Drum-and-Bass does not follow verse-chorus-verse in any way, but does return to important themes/sounds as the song progresses. I think that BDM, by tightening up the song writting process and returning to vital sounds/elements, the end result would be far more musical/appealing/groundbreaking. The songs might be 20-40 seconds longer, but also become more memorable. New Genre? Yes - since current BDM pretty much goes no where, while providing the listener a good time in the process.

Author:	TheUglySoldier [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:06 pm ]
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I don't think the next development in metal is going to happen by people sitting down and deciding to be original. It's going to happen almost by accident, with someone composing and playing something which turns out to sound unique. I also don't think it will necessarily involve a direct fusion of different genres, as a lot of people see as the way of progression.

Author:	Sentienth696 [ Wed Oct 15, 2008 11:24 pm ]
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TheUglySoldier wrote: I don't think the next development in metal is going to happen by people sitting down and deciding to be original. It's going to happen almost by accident, with someone composing and playing something which turns out to sound unique. I also don't think it will necessarily involve a direct fusion of different genres, as a lot of people see as the way of progression. Right on. Well said.

Author:	AltoVariago [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 8:56 am ]
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Sentienth696 wrote: TheUglySoldier wrote: I don't think the next development in metal is going to happen by people sitting down and deciding to be original. It's going to happen almost by accident, with someone composing and playing something which turns out to sound unique. Right on. Well said. i agree too

Author:	Melmoth_the_Wanderer [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 10:13 am ]
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Can we just create some names for genres that already exist? I want Gloom for Gothic Doom, so I can answer; "what music do you like? Doom and Gloom, and a bit of Mayhem, Death and Destruction."

Author:	newp [ Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:46 pm ]
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206 wrote: CorpseFister wrote: There is a subgenre of dnb these days some people are calling 'deathstep' (guys like Current Value, Dylan, Limewax). Its fairly ridiculous - double bass, over-driven drums, odd rythms and evil sounds effects, all distorted to the max. I think it would make an excellent and unique cross-over genre if mixed with some guitar and growls. Dylan has been doing crazy shit like that for years. His TechFreak label is probably closest to this, along with old-school Renegade hardware. I was referring to song structure and progression theory. Drum-and-Bass does not follow verse-chorus-verse in any way, but does return to important themes/sounds as the song progresses. I think that BDM, by tightening up the song writting process and returning to vital sounds/elements, the end result would be far more musical/appealing/groundbreaking. The songs might be 20-40 seconds longer, but also become more memorable. New Genre? Yes - since current BDM pretty much goes no where, while providing the listener a good time in the process. I dont think it would really progress to a whole new genre though since it would still have most of the same conventions albiet with a different approach to structure. And besides Im not sure that I would completely agree that that BDM goes nowhere... I think it really depends on the band. On the matter of style and sound itself, in the last 2 odd years the dark end of dnb has really pushed itself far beyond anything heard in the last 15-20. Current Value in particular is releasing insane stuff that is in some ways as simillar to death metal or grind or gabber or glitch as it is to drum and bass, and it really does open up a new ground that metal could exapnd into. It would be a niche genre, for sure, but wouldnt it be great to hear some killer BDM with a tearing reece bass, some synth stabs and chopped-up amen breaks for fills? (the answer is yes). Who knows though... metal has really only ever taken electronic influences from nom-breakbeat genres like IDM and trance.

Author:	Nochielo [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:53 am ]
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I think the evolution is already happening. Take Xasthur for example. It is labeled as a black metal band although the sound of the music has nothing to do with any black metal anywhere! Not even bands that are tagged with the ambient black metal tag (Leviathan, Blut Aus Nord) sound like Xasthur. Also, other bands like Unexpect, Arcturus and even veterans like Neurosis are pushing the genre to new directions with every release and there are no signs of this stopping anytime soon. Anyway, there is still good, unoriginal metal coming out so we should not fear for the future of metal.

Author:	MescalineSunrise [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 9:43 am ]
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What are your thoughts on Deathcore? It's a genre that makes me a saaaad panda mainly coz most of the bands are scene garbage and because making br00tal deth met0l (avec breakdowns) is now a trend. It's a shame because there are some (albeit few) decent Deathcore bands out there and they've been given a bad name because of the other bands.

Author:	diabolikon [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 11:30 am ]
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Deathcore was a step in the wrong direction, though I won't deny that it has a few (very few) good bands.

Author:	Dechripastocide [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:37 pm ]
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Sentienth696 wrote: TheUglySoldier wrote: I don't think the next development in metal is going to happen by people sitting down and deciding to be original. It's going to happen almost by accident, with someone composing and playing something which turns out to sound unique. I also don't think it will necessarily involve a direct fusion of different genres, as a lot of people see as the way of progression. Right on. Well said. See Black Sabbath.

Author:	goatmanejy [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:54 pm ]
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awm wrote: Maybe I'm wrong, but here's my reasoning. I say that because prog rock bands have tried to mimic classical music with movements (also known as 'dickery' to detractors) whereas blues-oriented forms of rock, even though psychedelic rock includes a lot of jamming, are more repetitive. It seems like there is a dichotomy between trying to make douche-like pretentious movements and just straight out jamming in jeans and a dirty t-shirt. Listen to 'Tales from Topographic Oceans' (Yes) or 'Hemispheres' (Rush) and then listen to 'Disraeli Gears' (Cream) or 'Surrealistic Pillow' (Jefferson Airplane). To me there is a bigger distinction there than between psych and most other forms of rock or blues. All great albums. Well, except Surrealistic Pillow. Psych metal exists, but theres no real scene for it - just a few dissimalar groups like UFOmammut, Nachtmystium, Sir Lord Baltimore, - heck, even some stoenr metal groups.

Author:	zervyx [ Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:31 pm ]
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Oflick wrote: When bands experiment, they're often just thrown into the "Experimental" or "Avant garde" Catogory. That's true, however, there are bands experimenting so much with different styles that they do deserve the "experimental" tag, like using styles of all sort in the same song. By example, BNR classifies does bands as "Eclectic Metal". http://www.bnrmetal.com/v2/genre.php?ID=Q Some of them (in my personal opinion) are just a "puke" of styles without any sense, but some people do like them.

Author:	Crick [ Tue Oct 21, 2008 5:02 pm ]
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This has been brought up before, but what about Bethlehem's self-created "Dark Metal" genre? A few other bands are listed as Dark Metal. What's that actually entail? Also, -core has done its damage and is now fading into obscurity. Its been around for a substantially smaller time than other genres and is already rank with memes and predictable style. Long sentences for names, "slashed" logos, faux-clever wordplay in song titles... Theres nothing new anymore. Not to say that other genres are devoid of memes, but -core genres have this inherently annoying atmosphere when it comes to theirs (rather than Goregrind's inherently disgusting names, or the peculiar yet unfriendly look of black metal logos.)