Burzum was pretty mediocre, there were tons of better 90s bands: Mayhem, Emperor, Ulver, Darkthrone, Blut aus Nord, Dissection... if you take the controversy out of Burzum you end up with almost nothing.

It really feels like the Metal Archives is starting to turn into a Nazi bar.

I think a lot of people feel the need to distance themselves by calling him an idiot because deep down they feel guilty for entertaining that side of themselves that is not morally acceptable. The famous psychologist Jung has written in great detail about this phenomenon.

Burzum was pretty mediocre, there were tons of better 90s bands: Mayhem, Emperor, Ulver, Darkthrone, Blut aus Nord, Dissection... if you take the controversy out of Burzum you end up with almost nothing.

Calling Burzum mediocre then praising Ulver is some funny shit.

I mean I can understand if you don't like Burzum and do enjoy the other bands, but Ulver is the epitome of style-over-substance, weak ass black metal, and I say that as someone who actually likes Ulver.

Ulver's third album is the black metal album supposedly recorded in a cabin in the woods but sounds like it's recorded in a trash can or something similar. Burzum is one of the originals whose style thousands of bands are failing to copy, including Ulver.

Having said that, the whole mythology surrounding Dissection is of course part of the attraction for many young people. It's transgressive, forbidden, dark... That's what black metal is all about. I also think there is a difference between being fascinated by a story like Jon's and encouraging that kind of behaviour. I think a lot of people feel the need to distance themselves by calling him an idiot because deep down they feel guilty for entertaining that side of themselves that is not morally acceptable. The famous psychologist Jung has written in great detail about this phenomenon.

I don't listen to Burzum because I don't think he's got a single album worth listening back to back. If stuffing your classic albums with half hours of filler ambient is not style over substance I don't know what that is.

You know that this argument only applies for one of those albums, right?

30% of Hvis lyset tar oss is taken up by Tomhet so that makes two already. Mind you, the shitty ambient is just my biggest gripe with Burzum's discography, but not the only one.

Yeah, there are definitely some posters on this site who sure seem to be real into bands full of reprehensible people but are Definitely Just Here for the Music.

It really feels like the Metal Archives is starting to turn into a Nazi bar.

Does it really make a difference if it was due to homophobia or satanism? If we're judging bands on shitty founders/members both Varg and Jon are murderers. Varg also happens to be racist, but we're just talking different types of garbage people at this point.

As far as being attracted to Dissection because of "darkess" I guess maybe some people are. I tend to think it's not many, but maybe I'm off base. I initially checked out Dissection because they're a classic black metal band. I liked them because they're on the more melodic side which is my preference. I didn't even know about the drama and "darkness" until years later because I genuinely don't care about it. I think we're sort of an outlying group here that will look up bands histories and such, a lot of people don't do that.

This is all anecdotal obviously, just my observations and opinions. No way to really know I suppose.

I just added a correction to Jon's case. I am not saying that the motive absolves him of his guilt or somehow diminishes it.

As for being drawn to the "darkness" of black metal, I think it's pretty well established that people are drawn to stories of crime and danger due to various psychological mechanisms. This is why crime fiction and true crime are among the most popular forms of entertainment in the world.

It's also pretty well established that those same things push a lot of metalheads away from BM too.

Perhaps there really are a lot of people who listen due to the music, not because of its "darkness".

Even then, it cannot be denied that heavy metal is a form of music heavily concerned with the darkness of human existence, which is directly reflected in the music itself and its use of minor chords. Just take the first Black Sabbath album, which is arguably the starting point for the entire genre.

That doesn't change just because the majority of listeners reject the idea of actively making those fantasies come true.

That's a whole different argument.

How so?

Pointing out the metal is generally "dark" with minor chords is not the same as claiming most people are attracted to BM because of the crimes committed by 2nd wave BM artists.

Pointing out the metal is generally "dark" with minor chords is not the same as claiming most people are attracted to BM because of the crimes committed by 2nd wave BM artists.

It's the same evolutionary mechanism of human psychology that attracts people to both, so of course it's related.

You continually make the oddest arguments.

One is the music itself being darker and in minor chords. The other is the musicians doing crime. If you enjoy metal for the music itself, the criminality of the musicians is going to be irrelevant. I agree that there are probably some people who decided to listen to Burzum or Mayhem due to the controversy, but I would bet money that very few CONTINUED listening due to the controversy and either stopped listening because they didn't like it, or continued listening because they did.

Being attracted to something and then pulling away from it because of moral issues doesn't change what attracted you to it in the first place, but if you sleep better at night thinking about it that way, I'm not keeping you awake.

That's not even close to what I said.

As Carl Jung so brilliantly argued, being attracted to anything dark is related to the shadow of our own psychology. Therefore, I don't even think it makes sense to divide the idea of being attracted to the darkness of music itself with being attracted to the darkness of life in general. I understand that some of the people participating in this discussion want others to understand that they are morally clean, but I don't believe that for a second. We all entertain the darkness of our own psychology all the time. Whether it's being fascinated by the morally reprehensible or indulging in revenge on those guilty of crimes.

So of course the crimes surrounding the Norwegian black metal scene and the powerful aesthetic of burning churches is a massive draw for the genre, which now has millions of streams after it all became part of pop culture, where bands used to only sell a few thousand CDs at most. To claim otherwise is just ignorant.

You have to understand, he has prepared his argument very strongly in order to make himself look like an intellectual. So it was quite selfish of you not to answer exactly what he wants in order to him be able to refute you.

You're twisting my arguments, apparently so you can say things like "as Carl Jung so brilliantly argued".

I disagree with this as music is always a representation of something, and in black metal it is a representation of the shadow of human psychology. Consciously or unconsciously, you mirror Varg's emotional expression when you listen to Burzum, because that's how the brain works

Regardless of what black metal purportedly represents, what you get when you listen to it is your own, second hand intepretation of what the musician tried to express, and in the absence of all the information of Varg's emotions and ideas your own emotional response to that music can never be a mirror, a reflection of his. Nor should it be, because that would be boring as shit.

It is of course an interpretation, but you still mirror Varg in the sense that he is the starting point for the whole experience.

It is not a mirror, you as an individual face the expression of the artist and respond to his work according to your criteria, your experience and your emotions, and depending on all that you will react to the work in one way or another.

Based on recent research into how we listen to music and why we appreciate it, I don't believe in such autonomy, but we don't need to get into that. Just think about what you just wrote and think about why people listen to music and then consider how little sense your statement makes.

What do you mean? They perfectly described how music is subjectively experienced between individuals. I listen to music for that exact reason, to find something that feels good to listen to and sounds cool.

What do you mean? They perfectly described how music is subjectively experienced between individuals. I listen to music for that exact reason, to find something that feels good to listen to and sounds cool.

Based on recent research into how we listen to music and why we appreciate it, I don't believe in such autonomy, but we don't need to get into that. Just think about what you just wrote and think about why people listen to music and then consider how little sense your statement makes.

Btw; I also believe that the morbid history of black metal is, at best, the means by which people's curiosity is first picked. Anyone who is a fan of black metal is obviously a fan of the music, and no amount of fascination for the extra-musical affairs of the inner circle will keep you around for long if you don't like the music, because there's better ways to satisfy that fascination without dealing with the obnoxious sounds.

Listening to music is receiving a communicative signal by evoking a representation of that signal in the listener's brain. It is therefore not as subjective an experience as one would think. Music is a ritual, and the musician is the shaman who controls the experience, not the listener.