They also featured Jon Lord ! That helps. I liked these two songs very much and they had nothing to do with Born Again. There was no pressure at making something "heavy" or sinister / satanic this time. Just old folks playing what they're good at (don't get me wrong, I like Born Again too). Actually the song Out of My Mind's vocal line reminds me a little of Purple's Soon Forgotten off Purpendicular, but much better.

Nothing wrong with cash.

And I even hated 13. Terrible name, dull songs, flat production, and the most boring drumming I've heard since Rage Against The Machine. Ironically.

I'm not sure what to make of this. It might just be Ozzy talking, getting ahead of himself before the rest of the band is even sure of what is going on. It's so weird that he can't just communicate with his bandmates directly instead of having his wife call the record company and then eventually to the other guys, all through intermediaries. Or, at least that's the impression I get from his interview. Of course the label wants you to do another album, Ozzy. It went to number one for christ sakes. But he seems pretty excited about doing another record, and I would think that Iommi and Geezer would be too. I'm very interested in hearing where they would go with the new material. I thought 13 was a good album. It certainly exceeded my expectations. A new record or not, they have to do another world tour. And I can't miss this one.

It would be hard NOT to do a follow-up to a #1 album, wouldn't it?

Too much cash at stake.

They should at least try to switch the production up. Get someone other than Rubin.

I didn't hate 13, but I don't find myself going back to it very often. It's too derivative of earlier stuff. I'd love it if they explored their more eccentric side, but it's not going to happen.

That's true - I just couldn't resist the Naked Gun reference. And I messed up the name; it should have been '13 1/2: The Smell of Cash', to be followed by '13 1/3: The Final Insult', if they do record another one after this.

Dude, if they brought back Martin I'd be all over this. As it is I'm totally underwhelmed with the latest Sabbath lineup. It's good to see them still touring and Ozzy is a legend for sure, but he's not a great singer anymore and the tracks I heard from '13' were just dull and mediocre. I like to think of 'Cross Purposes' as their real last hurrah.

They should bring back Ronnie James...

And now I'm sad.

Still I'm Sad

I think they should bring Bill Ward back or just not bother recording with Ozzy again

I'd buy into another Martin album, but Iommi will never do that under the Black Sabbath name.

Well, I think they actually want Bill Ward to play with them again too, but I just don't think he is physically able to keep up with them any more, and certainly not for the touring schedule. I thought Brad Wilk did a respectable job on the album. Haven't seen them live with Tommy Clufetos, so I can't speak to that. I wouldn't mind they jamming with someone else if they decide to go ahead with a new album, perhaps someone more from that era of music.

I just wish they could record with Ward and have someone else play live or something. Ward's drumming is a joy to listen to on the early Sabbath records; he may have been kind of pretentious when he said it but he was totally right about his drumming style. He makes things so much more colorful.

They should really just release two albums to satisfy the entire fanbase.

1. Black Sabbath - Haunting Tales of a Warrior's Past.
2. Sabbath Black - Blacker than Black. Black black black.

They're trying to get Ward back in
http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/o ... th-reunion

I don't get this bullshit about contract disputes. Don't they all already have more cash than any person or family could ever spend?

Yeah, but it looks to me that considering Sharon manages Ozzy, she was probably demanding 50% of royalties, since he could be a big reason for the hype of the reunion. That would leave Bill with more than likely 10% at most. They should each get 25%. On the other hand, theyve been saying he's very out of shape.

50% for Ozzy? Any attempt to do anything without Iommi would be met with absolute loathing by everyone, and rightfully so. Iommi is Sabbath. Sabbath without Ozzy is just business as usual at this point. Then again, Sharon is a contemptible twat, and maybe Iommi just didn't give enough of a fuck to argue.

More rehashes I guess although 13 has grown on me to some extent and it has some good riffs like on "Loner", "Age of Reason" or on the bonus track "Pariah" and the psychedelic "Zeitgeist" which is a pretty decent successor to "Planet Caravan" but it's still quite mediocre when compared to the really strong last outing with Dio. Ozzy's vocals are the main problem for me. He just doesn't possess the intensity anymore. His vocals sound forced. I know it's natural as he's old but so was Dio and he sounded damn fine in The Devil You Know.

Those 2 songs were awesome and I think it's because NOBODY bothers listening to new Deep Purple - which is awesome - because Ian Gillan writes great, hooky lyrics. So when he cuts a track with Tony Iommi, everybody suddenly pays attention.

Tony/Ian >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> anything involving Ozzy

Not necessarily, no.

There are conflicting reports and interviews throughout the years but what is generally agreed upon is that Iommi came to control Sabbath and that agreements signed with former original members in order to own their "piece of the Sabbath name" were not really favorable to them. Over the years, it looks like Ward had it very rough at times, living in destitution in the 80s and suffering from various illnesses.

Geezer Butler struggled with his various projects but managed to work through the years either as a Sabbath or Ozzy Osbourne session/live player. But it was even more difficult for Ward, who pretty much disappeared from the industry except for a few side projects that never caught on. Meanwhile, Ozzy had his solo career and Iommi was in control of Sabbath.

Then a few years ago Ozzy went to court against Iommi. All of a sudden Iommi started referring to the Dio-era material and lineup as "Heaven & Hell" instead of Black Sabbath.

Things were eventually settled out of court with no public statement but it looks like Ozzy mostly looked after his interest and now has a say in Sabbath matters along with Iommi. Ward and Butler ? No official word but all indications points to them as mere footnotes. Guys who can be hired contractually to pretend it's classic Sabbath even though it functions as a dysfunctional corporation.

Anyway, I think the matter with Ward goes beyond the money. It's about principles too. Perceiving that he is being treated fairly and so on...

I really hope Ward gets to play and write on the album. His drumming is actually one of my favorite parts of some of my favorite songs. A lot of songs wouldn't be quite the same without his colorful drumming, what with the way he bobs and weaves his way through the music.

But they all played on the 70s stuff, which constitutes a big part of the >70 million records the band has sold according to wikipedia. Surely that's enough for at least one lifetime of opulence?

Was the plan ever to release The Devil You Know as Black Sabbath? The name H&H was initially conceived to distinguish the band from the Ozzy-fronted lineup which was on hiatus.

In spirit it was. They reunited to play Sabbath and make Sabbath like music. All of them said that it was great, that felt how it should be; Geezer said he couldn't so free with lyrics and music if Ozzy was the frontman. Iommi basically said it was a relief to have Dio on vocals cause he was a far superior vocalist thus he could write stuff that Ozzy couldn't handle. Dio (and the rest) said literally that H&H WAS Sabbath by all accounts. There's a TV interview where Dio says 'This is Sabbath'.

In retrospective, it was for all the better the change name. They did a totally classic Sabbath album without the pressure of being Sabbath. 13 was so worthless. It exists only cause Dio left this world. The guys had no intention to play with Ozzy again and H&H was doing so well...

It would've happened anyway I think. They'd probably still be doing H&H if Dio was alive, but with the Internet-age nostalgia wave and the big money behind it, some reunion with Ozzy would've happened no matter what.

Also they almost released an album with Ozzy in the early 2000s.

I wonder how much of that material was used on 13.

Really? I don't know, or maybe I'd just like to think that wouldn't have happened. Given Dio's shaky relationship with Iommi and co. after he first left in '81 or '82 or whatever, it'd be pretty whack for the band (well, just Iommi and Butler at this point) to ditch Heaven and Hell to reunite Black Sabbath, especially since all of the members of H&H acknowledged that it really was Black Sabbath. I mean sure, the best case scenario would be if Sabbath and H&H existed simultaneously, which would be wild, but really could never happen. Black Sabbath's too big of an entity; I don't think Iommi and Butler would be able to put any time, or at least the required time, to make H&H work, though I guess Dio was still active with his solo band during that time, but that's fucking Dio. And that isn't to mention the bad blood between Ozzy and Dio, which I'm fairly certain existed till the very end.

Well, we'll never know. I don't really know enough about the guys as people to say - it's just my impression that, after reuniting as H&H to begin with, they wouldn't have just stopped. But money does tend to call and rock bands have a habit of breaking up and getting back together. Whether H&H did anything else or not, the Ozzy reunion would have happened in some form or another if Dio was dead or alive.

I think '13' is a beast of an album and I'm in an exciting waiting for the next effort.

Sabba Nero forever!!!

Just so we don't forget, they're supposed to release a new album this year.

However, what with Butler being arrested for some bar brawl, I don't know if that's still on.

If I'm not mistaken, he was released the day after. I doubt that would have any influence on the writing-recording-releasing of an album.