A couple other people discussed it way back, but I'd consider blackgaze to be a subgenre of post-black metal.



Like I'd consider Solefald and Agalloch to be post-black metal, but not blackgaze. Meanwhile, I'd call Alcest, Deafheaven, and Cold Body Radiation blackgaze. Anyway, while shoegaze is partly named after effects pedals, shoegaze isn't all about the effects, it's about the wall-of-sound atmosphere the effects create. The sounds quite distinctive when you hear it. If shoegaze is pretty noise rock/pop, then blackgaze is pretty atmospheric black metal. Anyway, while from what I've heard Deafhaven is more post-rock than shoegazing, there is still a clear connection between shoegaze and blackgaze, I'd actually consider a lot of it to be closer to shoegaze than black metal.

Am I the only one who thinks that all these grindcore sub-genres are a bit stupid I mean the differences seem a bit too small to consider them different genres.

You're not the only one. Other than goregrind, M-A doesn't seem to view the other grind sub-genres as valid.

Can't think about many other than Pornogrind and Mincecore. Deathgrind, Goregrind and Cybergrind seem perfectly fine for me.

And powerviolence. Which, while related to grindcore, is actually closer to punk/hardcore. I don't think too many people take any of the other sub-genres seriously and are pretty tongue in cheek names.

Oh--noisegrind/noisecore is a legitimate one as well.

Pretty much the sum of all of this, but I'll say I can't find anything significant about goregrind, while there actually is a musical difference with pornogrind, the vocals are much wetter and the music itself is as disgusting as the lyrics. Anyway, yes, all the grindcore subgenres are retarded, it's all grind to me.

Thinking of pornogrind - it is more dancing, more simplistic and punk-vibed than classic goregrind, with related samples from movies and additional squealing vocals. You can call it just porn-related goregrind if you want Not much a separate genre. Of course just for fun!

Mincecore is an Agathocles thing - old-school death metal influenced grindcore with DIY punk/hardcore aesthetics.

Powerviolence is very extreme, chaotic, evolved thrashcore (which is fast old-school hardcore punk). It's too fast and extreme to be thrashcore but still not much death metal influenced to be classic grindcore. Thrashcore started in mid 80's (D.R.I., Siege, Deep Wound, Infest, Larm...), evolved to powerviolence in early 90's.

I though goregrind was supposed to sound more like 'Reek'-era Carcass - straightforward, punkish, (usually) grotty production - compared to "regular" grindcore. Certainly some of the better known gore bands - General Surgery, Haemorrhage, (early) Regurgitate - have been known to rather slavishly imitate that album.

Grindcore basically evolved out of european hardcore for the most part. So bands like Amebix, Anti cimex and Discharge. Grindcore due to its overlap with crust and arising around the same people/scene as death metal is much more metallic in general because of that.
Powerviolence is basically an extreme version of american hardcore for the most part. The metal influence isn't that great and it seems that a lot of punks went to this because they deemed grindcore etc to be too metal. However in more recent years you start to see bands which have powerviolence influence in their metal or even somehow manage to make metallic powerviolence without really being much else than powerviolence.

Here are some pretty good articles by Andrew Childers about powerviolence and cybergrind:

http://grindandpunishment.blogspot.com/ ... es-on.html

http://grindandpunishment.blogspot.com/ ... -with.html

And an introduction of whatever quality by Invisible Oranges to pornogrind:

http://www.invisibleoranges.com/2012/03 ... -a-primer/


I've always thought of goregrind similar to what Jimmy Calhoun has said, although it has definitely evolved into slightly more extreme versions of Carcass worship. It also (obviously) relies on gore lyrics, a focus on medical/surgical terms and almost "body horror" themes, and generally gurgled gutturals and/or "toilet bowl" vocals. Pornogrind is a little looser and simpler. It's very much an aesthetic choice as well, with band names, song/album titles, artwork, etc. being a big deal. Pornogrind also tends to (over)use pitchshifted vocals and porno samples.

Sludge and stoner metal are not inherently doom metal and thus are not doom metal subgenres, but a lot of sludge and stoner metal bands are doom metal. They are typically called sludge/doom or stoner/doom to differentiate from the non-doom variants.

OK, this has been bugging me a bit, even if it's not necessarily metal. Is mathcore a legitimate genre? To me it just seems to be a slang term for technical hardcore, but I've seen it thrown around so much and even used a bit around here at times (there's six bands with it in their genre field currently). However, how legitimate is it really?

Okay, having read the rules and guidelines-- in particular 4.3-- I just have to ask... what in the fuck, if anything, is 'hedgehog humping'? Because I can't tell if that sounds retarded or actually worth hearing.

And how does un-doomy sludge sound like? I suppose it's right there in front of my nose, but I can't recall ever listening to any of it.

I have never heard this term before and am now trying to suppress my laughter.

Honestly I'm not very knowledgeable about non-doom sludge as I don't really listen to it, maybe something like Superjoint Ritual, Acid Bath or Down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZPc0c1Wmtw

Crossover Speed Metal.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaItI5T2jIw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD9Sw5LUfns

Surprisingly, I could only find those two bands. Also Coprolalia but no Youtube samples of them. I would think Crossover/Speed would be a little more common, but it seems the rest of the bands that incorporate speed metal in their sound also use thrash metal.

Crossover / Power metal bands are similarly rare.
Aside from Crossover Death Metal, other non-Thrash crossover bands seem to be rare as well.

----

Another hybrid genre I was wondering about was death metal + shoegaze. Or, post-death metal if that exists. Strangely enough, when I searched for a death shoegaze band, I found a blackened power shoegaze band instead.

What makes a post-genre a post-genre? Would post-death metal have a post-rock influenced sound, or would there be something to distinguish it from regular death metal? I guess it depends on how people take to the genre tag. Sorry that I have to use Djent as an example, but it wouldn't be a genre term if there wasn't a significant portion of bands that started calling themselves djent after Fredrik Thordendaal coined the term.

I was thinking about post-death and maybe that could describe the very atmospheric death metal bands like Portal and Ævangelist?

Or we could use the term atmospheric death metal because we all already know what to expect when you say that.

What about death 'n roll, is that a valid sub-genre? Aside from Wolverine Blues-and-beyond Entombed, I haven't heard of any other band who plays this style. Although Dismember did have a try at it for one album (Massive Killing Capacity) but thankfully returned to their death metal roots. Dellamorte and Desultory (on their 3rd album) supposedly played this style but I personally haven't heard either of their records.

Oh, I agree that's it's not the most necessary or best genre title. I was just trying to think what post-death would sound like and that idea seemed pretty good.

It's commonly used to describe the hyper-technical/complex approach to hardcore of The Dillinger Escape Plan, though it's a bit overused to describe chaotic hardcore/noisecore IMO.



Some stupid shit that someone made up. The examples were mostly old school NYDM sort of stuff like Morpheus Descends and Infester not even slam.



Dismember never played death n roll. It was basically low-tuned heavy rock and roll with growls, mostly popularized because a few higher profile bands like Entombed and Gorefest moved towards it for a brief period in the mid 90s. It's a pretty clear-cut, but somewhat unpopular style that emerged along with the corporatization of death metal, but quickly died as melodic death metal was a much better way of softening up death metal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-WdUlWLc60
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WItSY9skRlU

There was a band that was describing themselves as post-death and it was the band Light Yourself on Fire . and it just sounded like really shitty metalcore. But it had and old drummer from Brutality in the band so I guess that's why they thought of the tag.

Post black has changed thru the years. It used to be stuff like Fleurety, Ven Buens Ende, Manes and even Virus but they were also called Avantgarde. Solefald, like Arcturus are avantgarde metal from their respective second albums onward. Both had a black metal debut and changed dramatically their sound on their sophomore release.

With the rise of Alcest the term changed for shoegaze inspired black metal.

It's sad that no one kept playing the stuff VBE was doing. The only bands that I remotely connect to that ol post black stuff are DHG, Code and Thorns.

Portal to me is both experimental and atmospheric death metal. Their unique harmonic approach and unconventional song structures put them on a different genre than merely death metal which happen to be atmospheric.

Funny, you claimed Dismember didn't play death 'n roll but you described how death 'n roll sounded like in the next sentence. Ha!

Shoegaze =/= post-rock.

Don't get your post, Batman. I was referring to Ganodoc post where post black metal is discussed.

The 'new wave' of post black is comprised by Alcest (Souvenirs - Les Voyages period), Lantlos and all similar sounding bands. I was pointing out that the term existed before for a whole different music style.

Unless you're implying that Alcest was not metal on the aforementioned albums?

No, I'm implying that the newer use of the term "post-black metal" refers to a combination of black metal and post-rock, and has nothing at all to do with shoegaze.

Post-rock + black metal = Deafheaven, Altar of Plagues
Shoegaze + black metal = that first Alcest album

So, how's called Alcest nowadays? I thought they kept being called post black metal. At least I've seen them lumped into the same genre.

From what little I've heard of their recent material there's really no metal in it at all anymore. It's just B-grade shoegaze.

I meant how is their metal shoegaze material called. I'm sure Ecailles was called post black metal.

Maybe by people who are wrong? It's black metal/shoegaze or "blackgaze" if you want to be a douchebag.

Edit: I think the current "post-metal" tag on their page serves more to identify how far the band's sound has moved from black metal recently than any real relation to post-rock (or post-metal, really).

Why can't it just be technical hardcore and still a legitimate genre? Anyway, it's not just pure hardcore, most of it's more metalcore than just hardcore. There is also math rock, which I guess is technically a form of post-hardcore, but it's less heavy and more noisy than mathcore, if that makes any sense. The only math rock band I really know is Slint, which is a sort of rhythmically complex post-rock/post-hardcore thing.



Non-black metal + shoegaze = metalgaze
Black metal + shoegaze = blackgaze

Simple.

Okay, I have a real question this time. Is post-metal the the same thing as atmospheric sludge metal, or are all fusions of post-rock and metal post-metal? If the latter is true, would post-metal be the same thing as metalgaze, would metalgaze be a subgenre, or would they be separate? While shoegaze and post-rock are clearly separate but related genres, it get's harder to separate their influences once you start mixing them with metal and other genres as well. Dream pop also blurs more with shoegaze when you start mixing it with metal. For example, I think metalgaze fits a good deal of Deftones material, but I wouldn't call them post-metal.

So, power metal combined with shoegaze would be metalgaze, as would death metal/grindcore/shoegaze? No thanks.

Blackgaze is apparently a thing, even though most of it doesn't really seem to be shoegaze or black metal, but metalgaze? Not a real genre.

Edit: Deftones isn't metal, so it shouldn't really be called metal-anything. I don't know what their genre is, but nothing I've heard by them is even remotely metal. Out of genuine interest, having heard only two mid-career albums by them, can you provide examples of their more shoegazey stuff? I remember one or two song from White Pony having vaguely shoegaze-ish atmosphere, although traditionally shoegaze is really upbeat but dreamy, and not angsty at all like Deftones.

this type of explanation is very help full..

http://www.casinoonlinebrasil.org/

They are metal enough to be called metalgaze, are you saying all those metalcore bands are 100% metal as it has metal as a prefix? And most metalcore are far more metal than they are hardcore, -core is as much "hardcore" as metalcore needs in it's name. While Deftones isn't particularly metal, they are as metal as they are anything else, they are an experimental rock band. Anyway, I think this song is a classic for their shoegaze influence on their latter work.



It's definitely not pure shoegaze or dream pop or whatever, hence metalgaze, though I think this is one of there less metallic shoegazy songs. Many of there songs since and including White Pony have a similar texture, this song is by no means an exception. You can call it alternative rock, but you can call lots of things alternative rock.

No, metalgaze isn't really a real genre, it's sorta a cross genre term like extreme metal. While many metallic genres have been fused with shoegaze, black metal is the only one that's regularly fused with shoegaze, hence while blackgaze is a true genre. That's why I asked my question, as atmospheric sludge metal is as much of a genre as blackgaze, so does post-metal specifically refer to atmospheric sludge metal, or is it all the metalgaze stuff and any other post-rock/metal fusions?

To explain better that the mixing of genres or subgenres, i suggest to create a system like this http://pokemon.alexonsager.net/
the only restriction is you only can mixing 2 genres at time.

I think something like this has been suggested before. The problem is that it would require the pre-inclusion of every genre of music to exist.

The problem is a genre is not the same thing as a theoretical fusion, in order for it to be an actual genre as opposed to a mere description there needs to be more than a couple bands making that style of music. Also, there is multiple ways to fuse genres. It's good for making names, but not identifying actual genres.

There's not a problem, is just a thing that doesn't exist, nobody knows the borders of a genre even the pure heavy metal is not clearly defined (is my opinion), i past hours and hours to group my albuns per genre but is impossible ( i gave up).
And there's no solution. And mixing name genres to me is absurd i prefer to say "with influences of" than mixing names.