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zabrak
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:54 pm
Posts: 2
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:06 pm 
 

You know, I was checking out sub genres in Metal earlier, and I guess I'm asking if there's any innovative metal groups around anymore

I mean think about it, when's the last time there's been a hot new metal genre? The 90s, right?

you know..Folk Metal, Drone Metal, Black Metal, Death metal (okay last two genres were 80s, but they really came into their own genre in the 90s)...a few other genres I'm sure that came from the 90s that I'm forgetting


That's not say to that there hasnt' been a plethora of great 2000s metal bands, but c'mon guys, they've just been expanding on what's been established previoiusly. There's really been no new sub genre of Metal that grabbed the community by the balls and went "THIS IS THE METAL YOU WILL BE WANTING TO PLAY FOR NOW ON". Something that started a new way to play metal, where bands across the world adapted to it. I'm telling you, the las time we've seen something like that was in the 90s

Has Metal reached it plateau?

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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:21 pm 
 

It's pretty closed minded to believe that the only way you can be innovative is to make an entirely new genre. Frankly I'd rather not have this:

Quote:
new sub genre of Metal that grabbed the community by the balls and went "THIS IS THE METAL YOU WILL BE WANTING TO PLAY FOR NOW ON"


Metal is a traditionally based kind of music, it is supposed to keep some semblance of its traditional metal roots and form. Good music can come from anywhere, but strictly in terms of metal as a genre, it doesn't need to keep on progressing and adding so many new genres to the point where it's unrecognizable from its origins. Now, I'm speaking as a fan of 80s-style metal and other classic kinds of stuff, but the point remains. If you get too far away from those sounds, what's the point of even calling it metal, you know? It just becomes too segregated with an even wider divide between fans of classic metal and fans of whatever new trend is going on. There comes a point where you need to put a stop-gap on how "bored" you get with metal without "new" innovations and such.

Keep in mind I'm not saying adding and experimenting with metal is bad; individual bands who do it are fine and whatever subgenres and trends pop up, well I'm sure they have their fans. But it doesn't mean we NEED those kinds of things for metal to stay good or even relevant.
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TheDefiniteArticle
Metal newbie

Joined: Tue Oct 26, 2010 9:50 am
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Location: United Kingdom
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:29 pm 
 

To be honest writing a good new riff is more innovative in my book than mixing in post-jazz fusion or whatever shite they come up with next.

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HamburgerBoy
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Joined: Sat Jul 07, 2007 6:40 am
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:33 pm 
 

Sub-genres are basically meaningless in the grand scheme of metal innovation. Folk metal is a gimmick and barely even a real thing, whereas black and death metal are catch-all terms that encompass dozens of disparate styles of metal, a many of which are new and continue to be developed/refined today.

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FasterDisaster
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Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 2:08 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:35 pm 
 

The innovation is in the refinement in this day and age.
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Undecalith
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Joined: Fri Jun 21, 2013 5:03 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:41 pm 
 

Bands can still innovate without exclusively combining genres into some mutant hybrid of metal. The problem is that if you stray too far from the 'metal' sound, as Empyreal stated, you're no longer writing metal music. The evolution of sound is a tough and relatively slow process though, so it's no surprise that there haven't been any big subgenre 'innovations' in recent years.

I like when bands explore the area around their signature sound, or go out of their way to try things that aren't strictly borrowed from other well-established subgenres. If the band can't be categorized easily then it's likely that they're doing something original. On a side note, I think it'd be interesting to hear a band playing around with scales that contain more than twelve notes with an underlying metal style.
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zabrak
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:54 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 6:58 pm 
 

Actually you know what? There is some 2000s genres:

Djent
Shoegaze (typically involved with black metal)
Post-metal


there's a few god awful -core genres too, for what it's worth

Hell, I suppose Power Metal may have came into it's own in the 2000s. Well it kind of kicked off in the late 90s, but really-really came to be its own thing in the 2000s. I'm still pretty sure that folk metal was already its own modern trend during the 90s though?

Anyway, so i suppose there is a few strictly 2000s metal genres though, that I listed. I'm probably (HOPEFULLY) missing out on more

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CF_Mono
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Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 5:21 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:03 pm 
 

TheDefiniteArticle wrote:
To be honest writing a good new riff is more innovative in my book than mixing in post-jazz fusion or whatever shite they come up with next.

This. Metal has a lot of tonal features but at the hart of it a lot of it is just meaty riffs.
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Shawnathan_Mory
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:13 pm 
 

Technical Doom Metal, Depressive Death Metal, Epic Thrash Metal and Black Metalcore haven't been explored yet. But seriously, I think that metal has come full circle. There is nothing left to innovate. In the future, I think we'll be seeing metal bands switching to Hard Rock and try to incorporate elements from extreme metal.

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Nahsil
Clerical Sturmgeschütz

Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 2:06 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:21 pm 
 

Shawnathan_Mory wrote:
In the future, I think we'll be seeing metal bands switching to Hard Rock and try to incorporate elements from extreme metal.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9wci8aCCM0

But no, that's not going to happen on a large scale, lol.

+1 for refinement, but there's always going to be bands doing new things as well, e.g.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cFOO1qSXS6Q
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HamburgerBoy
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:23 pm 
 

zabrak wrote:
Actually you know what? There is some 2000s genres:

Djent
Shoegaze (typically involved with black metal)
Post-metal


there's a few god awful -core genres too, for what it's worth

Hell, I suppose Power Metal may have came into it's own in the 2000s. Well it kind of kicked off in the late 90s, but really-really came to be its own thing in the 2000s. I'm still pretty sure that folk metal was already its own modern trend during the 90s though?

Anyway, so i suppose there is a few strictly 2000s metal genres though, that I listed. I'm probably (HOPEFULLY) missing out on more


Shoegaze has nothing to do with metal, "djent" may as well be called "Meshuggah metal" because it's little more than a copy of what they did on Nothing, and post-metal is barely a thing (and most would point to Neurosis in the early 90's as the progenitor).

Shawnathan_Mory wrote:
Technical Doom Metal, Depressive Death Metal, Epic Thrash Metal and Black Metalcore haven't been explored yet. But seriously, I think that metal has come full circle. There is nothing left to innovate. In the future, I think we'll be seeing metal bands switching to Hard Rock and try to incorporate elements from extreme metal.


Technical doom metal
Epic thrash metal

I'm sure those other two exist as well.

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tubescream
Mallcore Kid

Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 6:33 pm
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Location: Canada
PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:32 pm 
 

zabrak wrote:
Actually you know what? There is some 2000s genres:

Djent
Shoegaze (typically involved with black metal)
Post-metal


This is painfully incorrect. Shoegaze has its roots in the 1980's when bands like My Bloody Valentine, Slowdive, Lush, and Ride rose to prominence. The 2000's have witnessed numerous "post-metal" bands (this label is bullshit, in my opinion, because it fails to really classify anything and is typically used in a totally subjective fashion) experimenting with shoegaze-style effects and "riffs," but the genre itself is decades old.

Anyways, I don't think the solution to the possibility of metal "plateauing" is the formation of some silly new hybrid genres just for the hell of it; as others have already said, what matters the most is that bands remain loyal to their roots, regardless of what they are, and actually invest effort into writing riffs/songs that contribute to the expansion of whatever genre framework they are operating within.

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Metal81
Metal newbie

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 7:33 pm 
 

I agree with much of what has been said, and also wanted to touch on the whole notion of innovation. It seems quite simplistic to think that we have experienced everything that metal has to offer as an art form. It is easy to point to the legions of Suffocation and Bathory clones and think "there is just nothing new out there these days," but I also feel that the very nature of innovation makes it impossible to predict.

I could argue that a whole new major genre of metal will arise in the next decade, even though I have no real idea what the defining characteristics of said genre would be. Perhaps I am taking a "glass half full" perspective, but I certainly have hopes for continued innovation in and around metal.

As to innovative recent releases, what about the Bound By Entrails album that took MA by storm last year? I thought that was rather innovative, as did many of my peers on this site. Of course we all are entitled to our own standards for innovation, this is merely my (hopefully respectful) two cents.

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Varth
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:25 pm 
 

I think a band like Timeghoul showed where death metal could possibly go if people just got a tad bit weirder with it, and a newer band Pathogen shows in tiny 30 second spurts strange new riff sounds and dissonance. I'd say Portal and the ultra cavernous DM bands of today show possibilities if focused on a bit. All while staying strictly death metal that is. I found Thorns and Slagmaur to be rather innovative but not highly impressive as far as BM goes, people can try different shit they have to get over wanting to be a standard band with a standard sound, or start there and let their mind warp a little. I'd like death metal to get weirder but with some actual grand design and thought behind it.

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Abominatrix
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 8:40 pm 
 

Genre/subgenre titles are not created by bands. They are created by the press, by reviewers like the people on MA here, and so on, after the fact, to refer to something which already exists.

So, how would you know nobody's created a new subgenre in the 2000s? you wouldn't, until somebody decided to label it after the fact. That labeling is not necessarily a great thing, either.

SO yeah, while metal is indeed, as Empyreal says, a genre that requires a certain amount of referring back to its traditions and roots, there are certainly innovators, and plenty of room for innovation. DOn't look for new subgenres...that's really silly. Instead, look for bands doing something new that are not only experimenting but providing something interesting that might lead to further developments. By nature, most experiments are one-offs and dont' really catch on, but that's fine, too.

Basically, relax and don't worry about it. Enjoy what you enjoy and reject the things that bother you.
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lord_ghengis
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 9:03 pm 
 

I think innovation is definitely different to what it was in the 80's/early 90s. Most of the easy paths have already been explored, and technological improvements aren't drastically changing what is possible any more, so bursting out a totally new genre in a year or two seems pretty unlikely if not totally impossible.

However, this does not mean there is no room for innovation, it's just more genre tweaking/genre melding these days, and there's nothing wrong with that. It still keeps things fresh, and keeps things moving. Even things which owe their creation to earlier periods may take decades to come around as a fully fledged "subgenre" or subset of bands. Take Funeral Doom for example, despite having bands defining it and starting it off in the early/mid nineties, there were only 53 bands formed by 2000 for it (Including some N/As), it wasn't until the rush in the mid 2000s that it really jumped into the well known and well populated genre that is today, with the genre quadrupling to 219 bands by 2006 and currently it's in the high 300s. A similar thing seems to be happening with the dissonant death metal scene, which has really taken a decade since Gorguts, or over half a decade since the more directly influential Portal to really get going.

I guess the point I'm making there is that ideas that are quite old can still be birthed into bigger scenes and more established genres, who knows, the next big thing could be Disembarkation worship, you never know.
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Expedience
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:03 pm 
 

Abominatrix wrote:
Genre/subgenre titles are not created by bands. They are created by the press, by reviewers like the people on MA here, and so on, after the fact, to refer to something which already exists.

So, how would you know nobody's created a new subgenre in the 2000s? you wouldn't, until somebody decided to label it after the fact.


But if a genre only exists when it is labelled then it is the labelling which creates the subgenre. So it's not about the knowing.

Trying to take something from the OP, I think we are assuming he is talking about doing something 'new' in general, which is always possible, when he's probably talking about major steps similar to those taken by past subgenres. It's hard to imagine anything as significant and different as using growls can be implemented by metal anymore. This is not for want of imagination but rather, coming back to the journalists, the boundaries of metal have become almost totally circumscribed by what has come before. Who was to say that using growls was metal? We could have put anything with growls in a separate genre, 'growlcore' or something.

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Big_Grand
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Joined: Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:59 pm
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 10:53 pm 
 

can we think of a color that dosent exist? Who knows what we will see in the coming years. probably going to be more silly sub genres like "Transylvania spooky stench-grind" or something like that, but we might also see something fresh on our sons and daughters "digital water media capsule" shelf or something too

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Exigence
Age: 28 (Wait, what?!)

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:09 pm 
 

I like all the hyper specialized gimmicks. I expect to see more bands like Powerwolf and Ghost. Like you can't do a new 'form" of metal but you can do decent songs of a tried/true style and match it to a lyrical and visual niche.

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Against Such Things
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:29 pm 
 

Exigence wrote:
I like all the hyper specialized gimmicks. I expect to see more bands like Powerwolf and Ghost. Like you can't do a new 'form" of metal but you can do decent songs of a tried/true style and match it to a lyrical and visual niche.

Maybe then we can have a grindcore band that sings about kittens, damn it.
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Empyreal
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 25, 2013 11:33 pm 
 

Exigence wrote:
I like all the hyper specialized gimmicks. I expect to see more bands like Powerwolf and Ghost. Like you can't do a new 'form" of metal but you can do decent songs of a tried/true style and match it to a lyrical and visual niche.


Man, those are some of my least favorite metal styles. I'd hate it if that became a "thing."
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Exigence
Age: 28 (Wait, what?!)

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:10 am 
 

Well think back to bands like KISS, AC/DC or The Ramones. They had a sound. They had a look. There was a packed visual presentation. Extrapolate that to modern metal, all sub genres.

Ghost are evil popes.

Sabaton are in military gear.

I just see that going more in extreme directions. Especially with the ones that rise up and become the most popular. I notice it more every year. My idea for a band is just naval warfare and have the look of a battleship crew and leader/singer an 'admiral' character.

I like gimmicks. You can pick out and get a very specific thing.

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w0Lf
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:25 am 
 

I don't think we'll be seeing the same kind of creative thrusts the genre took from 1983 - 1993. Most avenues of exploration have been exhausted unless you consider stuff like "Avantgarde Blackened Djentcore with Shoegaze influences and a Sousaphone Player" to be innovation (Hint: it's not).
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AppleQueso
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:20 am 
 

Shawnathan_Mory wrote:
In the future, I think we'll be seeing metal bands switching to Hard Rock and try to incorporate elements from extreme metal.

Later Entombed?

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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:38 am 
 

AppleQueso wrote:
Shawnathan_Mory wrote:
In the future, I think we'll be seeing metal bands switching to Hard Rock and try to incorporate elements from extreme metal.

Later Entombed?

Six Feet Under?
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iamntbatman
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:42 am 
 

I think the development of extreme metal and other newer metal subgenres like power metal and stoner metal in the 80's opened the door to such a huge variety of sounds that there's no way we've even come close to exhausting the possibilities. Yeah, you get some blatant worship bands but even within fairly strictly-defined niches you get some really fantastic, idiosyncratic takes on styles that are just plain cool.

As an example, Finland has a pretty well-defined sound to much of its black metal scene, borrowing of course from the Norwegians but adding more focus on mid-paced rock or punk beats, groovy powerchord riffs and of course those all-important Finnish melodies. However, compare even closely related bands like Cosmic Church and Blood Red Fog and it's easy to see how both bands are bringing their own artistry to the music while remaining within the fairly strict confines of the style.

And that's just one example. Stuff like that is happening all over the world all the time, and the more variations come into existence, the more starting-off-points there are for new bands to come up with further iterations.
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Cthulhu_Fhtagn
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:53 am 
 

HamburgerBoy wrote:
Folk metal is a gimmick and barely even a real thing

:nono:
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qTp
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:13 am 
 

00s genres:
http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Blackgaze
http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/djent
http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Atmospheric+Sludge+Metal (if "post-metal" is too vague)
http://rateyourmusic.com/genre/Trance+Metal


(Psychedelic Black Metal??)
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:07 am 
 

Djent isn't metal, and blackgaze is a silly amalgamation of two genres, one metal and one not, and the end result is almost entirely in the realm of the non-metal component. Atmospheric sludge is, like blackgaze, in many ways an amalgamation of two genres, and therefore shouldn't be considered hugely innovative, or entirely metal for that matter. Trance metal is hopefully not a thing. Sounds utterly toxic.
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Frozen218
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:30 am 
 

It's marketing and that's all it is. Virtually every band's sound is a fusion that if successfully done forms it's own expression. You didn't see anyone calling Morbid Angel "Thrash-Grind-Death" or whatever back in '89. It was simply Morbid Angel's take on Death Metal.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:37 am 
 

That's pretty much nonsense. Not every band's style is a fusion of two or more genres, obviously. Many band's sound consists of much finer particles of musical influence than elements clearly definable as characteristics of a specific genre. Not to mention that there are many bands who follow one genre's standards quite faithfully.
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Frozen218
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:41 am 
 

Ilwhyan wrote:
Not every band's style is a fusion of two or more genres, obviously. Many band's sound consists of much finer particles of musical influence than elements clearly definable as characteristics of a specific genre.


A fusion none the less.
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Ilwhyan
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 7:46 am 
 

To what extent do you think that's relevant?
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Frozen218
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:01 am 
 

That's obviously up to you to decide.
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Empyreal
The Final Frontier

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 8:11 am 
 

Exigence wrote:
Well think back to bands like KISS, AC/DC or The Ramones. They had a sound. They had a look. There was a packed visual presentation. Extrapolate that to modern metal, all sub genres.

Ghost are evil popes.

Sabaton are in military gear.

I just see that going more in extreme directions. Especially with the ones that rise up and become the most popular. I notice it more every year. My idea for a band is just naval warfare and have the look of a battleship crew and leader/singer an 'admiral' character.

I like gimmicks. You can pick out and get a very specific thing.


Yeah but those bands were good, and wrote good songs. I just don't agree that Powerwolf or Ghost are anything that needs to be focused on as more than a novelty act...they just don't write very good songs; Sabaton either apart from a few albums/tracks. Gimmicks are crap, a good band can take one and make it work with good songs, but the gimmick itself isn't really anything to get excited over.
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Jackoroth
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 10:34 am 
 

I wouldn't mind a revisit of gabba grind like what The Berzerker did in the late 90s, I think they were the only ones that really did that and now that they don't exist, I think the sub genre is extinct.
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AndySlayer
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 12:59 pm 
 

There's a new subgenre that pops up every now and then that isn't necessarily what this site would consider metal but is considered as such by the public at large. What more is a genre anyway than a proliferation of a single unique band, a group at best? Besides, innovation is not always good. Far from it.

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Kveldulfr
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:21 pm 
 

In a way, Avantgarde metal is an umbrella term for innovating and hard to tag stuff. By 1997 people though metal was out of ideas and then Arcturus released La Masquerade Infernale. Now the innovation comes from fusion and refinement.

Bands like Virus, Fleurety, Dodheimsgard and Manes has been doing very different stuff for decades. Metal has always some bands going further.
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inhumanist
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 1:29 pm 
 

Vetter makes black metal with noise and folk elements and manages to create atmospheres and emotional narratives through complex soundscapes that seem very much unlike anything else I have heard within this genre, yet it indubitably is black metal. I would defnitely call this band a successful innovator of black metal in this very decade. The problem is that evolution needs propagation of memes, and Vetter is still mostly unnoticed. I think it is harder than ever for outstanding bands within the underground to get noticed by the underground because A: there are way too many bands, creating a "white noise" effect and B: people pay more attention to trends (which includes most of the so called "avant garde") or, alternatively, old school pandering, than genuine innovation.

At the same time people are more content with what they know. There is a metal band for every flavor one can think of. As a metal fan to fill my playlist it is sufficient to pick from bands that pander to my tastes. No need to expand my tastes in order to have enough to listen to without getting bored. This means that bands can be successful without exploring new grounds. They only fill niches. Niches that are predefined because they can be described by combining existing demands. Boxes that are filled instead of thought outside of.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 26, 2013 2:08 pm 
 

As Empyreal pointed out, metal, (like any other genre, really) is rooted in its own traditions. The foundation was laid down several decades ago and solidified over time. With each year passing, it becomes more difficult to truly innovate and remain in the genre. This isn't bad or anything. That's how things work. You can still create some pretty damn great metal music. If you stray too far, you may be innovating but it may not be recognizable as metal, or palatable to the traditional audience.

Another thing that's going on increasingly is the lack of evolution in isolation. The world has become an increasingly interconnected place. You can hear this Finnish band's record within hours of its release from the comfort of your home in Canada. This Finnish band may have used an Italian singer from some other band they toured with and a renowned Swedish producer to record their new opus that is an amalgamation of all the music they've been exposed to worldwide in the last two years with all the latest developments and hot trends in metal.

This makes for a more homogenous scene than it used to be. Not that metal was ever in true isolation, but we certainly live in a more homogenous world than we used to.

The situation right now facilitates picking and choosing whatever micro-development is happening elsewhere right now and incorporating it in your music before it can evolve organically from a local scene.

Local scenes would not necessarily be much more innovative but they would probably have a better chance of being strongly flavoured.
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